*Christian* Hard Rock Experiment

[Gina B]

I was upset recently by a program where not only was I uncomfortable with the style of presentation, but with the music itself. There weren't too many others that shared my view, so I decided I should keep an open mind about it. I had a few of the songs at home. I had bought a CCM (?) CD about two years ago, listened to it once, and had really disliked it. I dug it out, and one of the songs was one of the ones played at the program. Get Down, by Audio Adrenaline. I called all four girls in (my kids + our "adopted" child, ROFL) and turned on the song. We often dance, clap, sing along to Christian music, and this was no different. I didn't tell them anything or influence them in any way, I just sat and watched the reaction.
How they chose to dance was VERY different from what they normally do. It wasn't just carefree happiness, they wiggled and shook their hips, ran their hands up the air, typical sexual moves usually seen by non-Christian artists. VASTLY different from how they normally dance, and we don't normally have hard rock in our home, they do hear music in stores and at the neighbors, we don't have TV so they don't see videos, we have kid friendly music, so to be honest I don't know where they got it from. I suppose they could have picked it up anywhere, but neverless I thought it was weird. One of them said it make her feel like she was going crazy. They all wanted to hear it again. I told them they could if they could tell me what it was about. Nobody had a clue.
So, my opinion still stands. It's not God honoring, it's garbage. Children are the most honest when it comes to expressing emotions, and this is what emotions this type of music brings out in them.
Adults can filter it and control those types of emotions, but there's enough choice out there you don't have to pick good parts out of the trash, just go for the types of music and groups that aren't trashy to start with!
Gina

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Gina:
I had bought a CCM (?) CD about two years ago, listened to it once, and had really disliked it. I dug it out, and one of the songs was one of the ones played at the program. Get Down, by Audio Adrenaline.

...

It's not God honoring, it's garbage.

That song *is* garbage.

It's a "Christian" rip-off of "Tubthumping" by Chumbawamba.

It is mindless and stupid. Maybe that's what the kids picked up on.

 

[Aaron]

Thank you, Gina, for posting that.

BB,

The kids picked up on the music. They did just what the music told them to do.

 

[suzanne]

Good observation, Gina.

I've seen the same thing with music classes ranging from K-12 at Christian schools when heavy rock music or rap is played, regardless of the song lyrics.

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[Refreshed]

Originally posted by suzanne:
Good observation, Gina.

I've seen the same thing with music classes ranging from K-12 at Christian schools when heavy rock music or rap is played, regardless of the song lyrics.

Interesting, isn't it?

Absolutely fascinating. We knew that certain styles changed heart rhythm and brain activity, but here we have two examples, from two different people, of musical *style*, not just words, disrupting normal patterns of behavior in children.

[edit]I have changed "independently verified" to "from two different people" to avoid confusing scientific terminology. Please refer to the post below for further explanation.[/edit]

[ December 13, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Refreshed ]

 

[Gina B]

Wow, people are agreeing with me!

Someone elsewhere had said before when I was talking about this type of music (Carman in particular) "I'd rather have my daughter listening to this music than the non-Christian music". I thought true, good point and probably right, but now I'm thinking no, I'd rather they listen to something else altogether.
I keep trying to be more open minded about stuff, but I guess some things I just can't change on!
Gina

 

[Ransom]

Refreshed said:

We knew that certain styles changed heart rhythm and brain activity

Crud!

We "knew" no such thing. It has been asserted many times by people on this forum, but never established with any credible research. ("My science teacher said so," as was asserted in a previous thread, is not credible research. I had science teachers in high school too; they believed some pretty silly things.)

Why do Christians lose all sense of personal accountability for sin, and turn into hardcore Skinnerian behaviourists, when music is involved?

That being said, I haven't any great love for Audio Adrenalin either. They're cheesy.

[ December 13, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[Ransom]

suzanne said:

I've seen the same thing with music classes ranging from K-12 at Christian schools when heavy rock music or rap is played, regardless of the song lyrics.

As a member of my high school band as a teenager, I participated in band concerts for the local elementary schools every Christmas. Some young children display the behaviour you describe without there being any music - they come into the gym, they see the band, and they start dancing and generally fooling around. No music yet.

So why do they do it? Is no-music responsible for their behaviour? Nope. They're out of class, they got to hear the band, and it's a generally exciting and fun atmosphere.

 

[suzanne]

I'm just stating what I observed in my classes.

Childlike silliness aside there is a sensual and sometimes aggressive nature that comes out when this type of music is played. It is different than the response towards classical, jazz, blues, folk and most ethnic music.

Does anyone know if there has been research done in regards to this?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Refreshed:

Absolutely fascinating. We knew that certain styles changed heart rhythm and brain activity, but here we have two examples, independently verified, of musical *style*, not just words, disrupting normal patterns of behavior in children.

No we don't. We have anecdotal evidence that you've jumped on because it supports your views.

There's no control vs variable groups. There's no replication. There's no oppportunity for peer review.

How have these examples been independantly "verified"?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Refreshed:

Absolutely fascinating. We knew that certain styles changed heart rhythm and brain activity, but here we have two examples, independently verified, of musical *style*, not just words, disrupting normal patterns of behavior in children.

No we don't. We have anecdotal evidence that you've jumped on because it supports your views.

There's no control vs variable groups. There's no replication. There's no oppportunity for peer review.

How have these examples been independantly "verified"?</font>

On the contrary. Conclusive, verified, peer-reviewed scientific (e.g., controlled, and replicated) studies abound, if one is serious about looking for them.

Unfortunately, MuSICA, the Music and Science Information Computer Archives at the University of California, Irvine, can no longer be searched by the public over the Internet. However, the MuSICA Research Notes, a newsletter is still viewable.

Here's a blurb from an old article, Feel the Music

Krumhansl’s approach was to measure more physiological responses than previously done, to see if the overall patterns of response were different for different emotional reactions. She used twelve different actions of the autonomic nervous system, which may react “automatically” without purposive, conscious attention. Professor Krumhansl did find that the directions of change were the same for all three emotions: e.g., heart rate decreased, blood pressure increased, rate of breathing increased and skin temperature decreased. These findings seem negative, that is, to show that different emotions cannot be separated by bodily, physiological responses. However, this was not the whole story.

The data also were analyzed to determine the magnitude of changes, not merely the direction of changes. This revealed distinct patterns. “Happy” involved largest changes in respiration; “sad” involved greatest changes in heart rate, blood pressure and skin temperature; “fear” was associated with maximal changes in the rate of blood flow. In other words, the findings favor two facts: first, different genuine emotions can be physiologically defined according to autonomic, bodily functions and second, the emotional reactions produced by music are the “real thing”. Thus, music doesn’t simply convey intended emotions that we can recognize, but rather induces genuine emotions in the listener.

 

[Refreshed]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Refreshed:

Absolutely fascinating. We knew that certain styles changed heart rhythm and brain activity, but here we have two examples, independently verified, of musical *style*, not just words, disrupting normal patterns of behavior in children.

No we don't. We have anecdotal evidence that you've jumped on because it supports your views.

There's no control vs variable groups. There's no replication. There's no oppportunity for peer review.

How have these examples been independantly "verified"?</font>

MUSIC/INTELLIGENCE
University of California at Irvine researchers report that listening to Mozart's music increased spatial I.Q. scores in their study subjects. A follow-up study of toddlers indicated that those who took music lessons were better able to recognize variations in the position and shape of objects. (Your Health 34(2)4, January 24, 1995)

This is an example of music affecting brain activity.

Music & Brain Activity in Children
(March 29, 2000) -- Researchers, say music may actually modify brain activity in children.

Click here

Another example of research being done to study the relationship between brain activity and music.

Other recent research shows that music can do a lot more than evoke calmness or activity. It can affect blood pressure, heart rate, respiration, galvanic skin response, pupil dilation, discomfort and pain tolerance.

Click here for a very long report on this

They are finding that music can affect much more than just heart rate and brain function (although they may all be tied together biologically).

It took me about 5 minutes to find these three examples on the web.

 

[Mike McK]

Nope. Sorry, but your post was clearly referring to Gina and Suzanne's posts.

While I applaud your attempt to "research" this (although I really have to wonder if you gave equal time to opposing views), I've got to wonder why you went out to find a website that agrees with you after the fact rather than just standing behind your original statement.

[ December 13, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

[Gina B]

Calm down people, I did not present this as a scientific evaluation or absolute truth of the whole matter.
I found it interesting, it was a test of my own to help figure out what's suitable for my family. My conclusion is already stated, but as that's all the further I went I cannot say that your children would have the same reaction. I can only say what mine did and base what's right for us on that, I wouldn't care if a zillion studies showed that 99% of children drew closer to God by listening to this, mine do not therefore it's wrong for us.
It WOULD be interesting if all the people reading this tried it themselves. Use your kids or grandkids and see what happens. I still have the CD and we can pass it around, I wouldn't suggest wasting the $20 I did on it. LOL (it's the WoW 2000 CD I think)
Gina

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Gina:
Calm down people, I did not present this as a scientific evaluation or absolute truth of the whole matter.
I found it interesting, it was a test of my own to help figure out what's suitable for my family.

Sure, that was fine. I wasn't responding to what you said, I just thought it was funny that people would take your one example and say "A-HA! That proves it."

I can only say what mine did and base what's right for us on that, I wouldn't care if a zillion studies showed that 99% of children drew closer to God by listening to this, mine do not therefore it's wrong for us.

And I think the way you went about it was the best way to go about it, rather than making sweeping, blanket declarations without actually (God forbid!) examining the music like some people here do.

It WOULD be interesting if all the people reading this tried it themselves. Use your kids or grandkids and see what happens. I still have the CD and we can pass it around, I wouldn't suggest wasting the $20 I did on it. LOL (it's the WoW 2000 CD I think)

Don't have kids but if I did, I don't think they'd listen to CCM (nothing wrong with you doing it, I'm basing that on a cultural decision, not a moral one).

By the way, you do know that none of the music on Wow 2000 is anything close to "hard rock", don't you?

[ December 13, 2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

[Refreshed]

Sorry, I was in error to use the scientific terminology "independently verified." I meant no more than that two people came to the same conclusions on their own. Words are very important, but due to my scientific background (geology/meteorology, no degrees, just upper level classes), I let those words slip in. Too many term papers!

Obviously this was not a scientific test.

I also misunderstood the meaning of your last question, "how have these examples been independently verified?" I thought you were speaking in a more general sense, and yes, I do spend a lot more time than I should on both sides of an issue. I have researched this issue in the past as a passing interest due to the apparent medical benefits of music, I just didn't take the time to look up my notes, which I should have done. My point about looking up the posts is that it is *so* easily verifiable that music apparently affects the brain and other systems in the body.

I need to read more carefully in the future, and I have edited my original post to reflect what I meant to say.

I do have to wonder why Ransom would flare up like that, though.

You have to be really careful on this website, apparently, as there are so many out there that will disagree apparently just to disagree. Go ahead, tell me where I've slipped this time.

[Edited personal jab.]

[ December 13, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Gina B]

Editing a personal jab at Ransom? Now THAT was funny! If you only knew Aaron, if you only knew! ROFL
There's a few of us who pick on him as almost a hobby. Don't worry, he deserves every bit of it.
Gina

 

[Jacob]

During my teenage years I was heavy into Stryper, Rez Band, Daniel Band, Bride, Tourniquet, Petra, and all the other Heavy Christian rock bands of the 80's and early 90's. etc. They did nothing but encourage me to develop my relationship with God and to evangelize my Faith. I thank God for providing those Bands during a very crucial time in my Life.

Jacob.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
By the way, you do know that none of the music on Wow 2000 is anything close to "hard rock", don't you?

What the heck is it then? Go listen to the song I listed. I'd tell you what else is on there but I can't find the case right this sec.
Gina

 

[dbrits]

Originally posted by Gina:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike McK:
By the way, you do know that none of the music on Wow 2000 is anything close to "hard rock", don't you?

What the heck is it then? Go listen to the song I listed. I'd tell you what else is on there but I can't find the case right this sec.
Gina</font>[/QUOTE]Tracklisting for WoW 2000, coutrsey of Amazon.com:

Disc 1

1. Consume Me - dc Talk
2. No One Loves Me Like You Do - Jars of Clay
3. Love Liberty Disco - Newsboys
4. Gravity - Delirious?
5. I've Always Loved You - Third Day
6. Thankful - Caedmon's Call
7. Away from You - The O.C. Supertones
8. Little More - Jennifer Knapp
9. I Want to Know You - Sonic Flood
10. Get Down - Audio Adrenaline
11. Basic Instructions - Burlap to Cashmere
12. River - Out of Eden
13. Rumor Weed - The W's
14. Always & Forever - Raze
15. Stranded - Plumb

Disc 2

1. Speechless - Steven Curtis Chapman
2. Takes a Little Time - Amy Grant
3. I Will Be Your Friend - Michael W. Smith
4. Show You Love - Jaci Velasquez
5. Can't Live a Day - Avalon
6. Breathe - Sixpence None the Richer
7. Saving Grace - Point of Grace
8. Run to You - Twila Paris
9. Revive Us - The Anointed
10. It's Alright (Send Me) - Winans Phase 2
11. I Will Follow Christ - Bob Carlisle
12. One of These Days - FFH
13. Omega - Rebecca St. James
14. For the Glory of Your Name - Michelle Tumes
15. Cartoons - Chris Rice

I'd second Mike's comments; none of these songs are considered "hard rock." Think more along the lines of POD.

During my teenage years I was heavy into Stryper, Rez Band, Daniel Band, Bride, Tourniquet, Petra, and all the other Heavy Christian rock bands of the 80's and early 90's. etc. They did nothing but encourage me to develop my relationship with God and to evangelize my Faith. I thank God for providing those Bands during a very crucial time in my Life.

Amen, Jacob. It's great to hear the positive things those bands did for you.

db

[ December 14, 2002, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: dbrits ]