Christian Non-Negotialbles?

[cowboymatt]

HP: When I do that some on your list are the very source of either the development of ideas clearly contrary to Scripture and or the perpetuators of those false notions. Certainly great caution is in order.

Of course, but which one of us is really arrogant enough to say that we can't learn from someone that we disagree with or even from someone who is wrong?

What ever happened to learning from other's mistakes?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cowboy Matt: Of course, but which one of us is really arrogant enough to say that we can't learn from someone that we disagree with or even from someone who is wrong?

What ever happened to learning from other's mistakes?

HP: Excellent point. :thumbs: That is one of the great benefits of lists such as this one. As we converse with each other and work through the issues, even those on the very verge of ‘toe-nail ridiculous’ opinions, we can gain immensely in not only our own understanding but in developing better and more effective means of communication with those steeped in error or simply confused.

 

[Matt Black]

The Bible was NOT the product of Tradition, nor did the Church exist prior to the Bible. How could the Church exist prior to the Bible.... Jesus quoted Scriptures, didn't He? The O.T. was Scriptures before the N.T. was complete. It was the Lord Jesus Christ Who stated what was canonical and what was not. He certainly didn't quote "Tradition".

It is a matter of historical fact that the Church existed before the Bible did if, as I assume, by the term 'Bible' you mean Old and New Testaments combined. The OT of course existed before the Church but the NT didn't. That's an historical fact.

 

[Matt Black]

Back to DT: You said "As far as tradition subsequent to the Christian canon, it must be tested by the Bible as interpreted by the consensus of the Church during the period in which the Scripture was collected and canonized." Is that not putting too much emphasis on the Church Fathers and not enough on the continued work of the Holy Spirit throughout the rest of the Church's history?

Same thing to an extent; for me the greater importance of the ECFs lies in the fact that they were products of the HS's action within the Undivided Church of the first millenium; the actions of the HS in the Church after that get a bit more 'blurry' IMO!

 

[cowboymatt]

Same thing to an extent; for me the greater importance of the ECFs lies in the fact that they were products of the HS's action within the Undivided Church of the first millenium; the actions of the HS in the Church after that get a bit more 'blurry' IMO!

This is true. I would even say that we should way the ECF's by the rule of faith, i.e., the NT.

 

[Matt Black]

Re the non-negotiables of the OP, here's my list:-

1. Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds and, in particular,

2. The Trinity as defined by Nicaea I and Constantinople I

3. Christological definition of Ephesus and Chalcedon

4. Salvation by grace through Christ alone

5. Authority and divine inspiration of Scripture

 

[cowboymatt]

Re the non-negotiables of the OP, here's my list:-

1. Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds and, in particular,

2. The Trinity as defined by Nicaea I and Constantinople I

3. Christological definition of Ephesus and Chalcedon

4. Salvation by grace through Christ alone

5. Authority and divine inspiration of Scripture

In my opinion, I think that your #1 can be boiled down into your #s 2-5. Also, #s 2 & 3 can be put together under "Trinity." This would leave you with three: the Trinity and all the orthodox believes thereof, salvation by grace through Christ alone (which I call the efficacy of the cross alone for salvation), and the authority of Scripture.

I'm on board with you is what I'm saying!

 

[Matt Black]

Thanks, although I'm not sure #3,4 & 5 are explicit within #1 (#2 is explicit within #1) - I guess you could say they're implicit though.

 

[Born_in_Crewe]

I would say:

1. Believe in a single, real God
2. Belief that Jesus existed, came to Earth and died on the cross, in order to save sinful man.
3. Belief that Jesus rose from the dead in order to prove his divinity
4. Accepting and repenting of one's personal sins and putting faith in Jesus Christ.

I like to keep things as simple as possible, in order to make it easier for people to understand Christianity. I also like to be as universal as possible, providing it does not contradict the Bible. I also think if somebody has NEVER had the opportunity to believe in Jesus, e.g. if they have neer even heard of Jesus, then they will be judged on either what they would have believed if they could, or their faith according to the light that they have known.

Remember that God doesn't actually want to send anyone into the Devil's hands, so if he can find a way to save them he will. If they are unsaved however, he will be forced to punish them according to his own laws.

 

[cowboymatt]

I would say:

1. Believe in a single, real God
2. Belief that Jesus existed, came to Earth and died on the cross, in order to save sinful man.
3. Belief that Jesus rose from the dead in order to prove his divinity
4. Accepting and repenting of one's personal sins and putting faith in Jesus Christ.

I like to keep things as simple as possible, in order to make it easier for people to understand Christianity. I also like to be as universal as possible, providing it does not contradict the Bible. I also think if somebody has NEVER had the opportunity to believe in Jesus, e.g. if they have neer even heard of Jesus, then they will be judged on either what they would have believed if they could, or their faith according to the light that they have known.

Remember that God doesn't actually want to send anyone into the Devil's hands, so if he can find a way to save them he will. If they are unsaved however, he will be forced to punish them according to his own laws.

Thanks for your contribution. However, this thread's not necessarily about whether an individual is a Christian, but whether a group, ministry, church, etc is Christian.

 

[Born_in_Crewe]

Sorry, my mistake!

 

[cowboymatt]

Sorry, my mistake!

Its okay. Your comments were still very helpful.