Christian "Rock"?

I am blessed,

You have a wonderful attitude and approach to this. I wholeheartedly support you and your musical preferences.

There are several hundred folks just like you in our church--and there are several hundred who prefer a different style. Of course, as with most things, the majority are clustered somewhere in the middle...they like something new, they like a praise band, they like hymns, they like piano & organ...so we do it all.

Some of you have hinted around at this, and I'll ask it...you've mentioned that you like this or that, and some of you say, "not when it's rock." When does a song become "rock?"

Couldn't I play ten songs for you that are "somewhere in the middle," and some of you would claim all ten were "rock"--others say five, and some say none of them. When does a song become "rock" and therefore evil? How can one possibly employ a biblical standard to judge each individual song? And what happens when there's a 50/50 split on whether that song is "evil rock" or not? What scripture (or scripture fragment) wins the battle then?

That sound you hear is the worms crawling out of the can that has been opened.

 

With all respect to SFIC, it's my position to choose (with the Holy Spirit's leading) the songs that best lend themselves to the support of my pastor's message. Thankfully, since we both serve God and pray individually and together about it, our services "match up" most of the time. Since I am a Worship Pastor, I think in terms of Scripture and the music that goes with it. So the exclusion of that music is a little foreign to me... whether its traditional or not. I understand with the explanation of no pianist why you did it, but the assumption that alot of my church would go away because there was no music is not entirely correct.

Again, I'll use anything to praise the Lord... even the accordion if I could play it! Glad to be worshipping and serving God with all of you, even if we don't always agree on how.

 

My preacher always says that if it is worldly, the beat will go against our heart beat, but if it is Godly, the beat will beat with our heart beat.

I have tried this and it seems to be true.

 

I am blessed,

I'm trying to understand that...does that mean if the tempo is 60-80 beats per minute or more, then it's wrong? A natural heartbeat would lend itself to a 3/4 or shuffle rhythm...are those better?

Or is that more about volume? (Then it's a sound reinforcement issue...which could be true for any genre).

Finally, how would that be backed up with scripture?

I'm not ridiculing your pastor's assertion...I'm just not understanding it...please explain what you mean.

 

I will try.

If your heart beat goes ka thump, ka thump, the beat of the worldly music will go thump ka, thump ka.

Sorry I can't explain it any better. It was about 30 years ago when he preached that sermon.

Have you read the book The Music of Jubal?

 

Based on the logic I have seen demonstrated on the Baptist Board, I now refuse to buy Bibles because Amazon and Wal-mart sell Bibles.

How could a "secular" business sell a "non-secular" item like a Bible and it still be right.

I will not even comment on the absurdity of determing the legitimacy of a style of music based on a heartbeat or suggesting a church should eliminate music to see who the "true" Christians are ... I would like to see what would happen if SF brought in contemporary music instead of traditional hymns. Do you think those "spiritually mature" Christians would still be around?

I would also add a note here to say that we do not pick our music solely on what our believers want. We also base music on what will connnect to the 40-50% of unbelievers that attend our church every week -- an issue that very few on Baptist Board have to face.


I am truly amazed at the things I see typed on this forum that are supposed to be based on some form of logic. Obviously there are a lot of people who type without thinking or perhaps they are incapable of seeing the fallacies of their own logic.

That's why the Baptist Board is nothing more than fun and games.

 

AAG -

While I share your concern for the lost and dying, try to understand that church is for the lost, but also for the Christians. Trying to accomodate all styles, genres, and techniques is a full-time job, believe me. That's why I don't try very hard to cover all the bases. We are concerned with Biblical lyrics and how close we can get to the Father. The rest is just preference, and not condusive to what we're shooting for.

 

We've done a few services that were more focused on reflection, silence or solemnity with little to no music. Some of them also had very little preaching but plenty of scripture. I found them to be among some of the most powerful services we've had.

Members of our congregation don't come for the music or the pastors. They come for God. </font>[/QUOTE]I too (along with my youth) like the solemn quiet services...They have actually influenced me in this way.

There is so much music out there, and so many ways to listen too it, and so much access to any type of music that I think the tweens growing up will get so "numb" to music that in a few yrs it won't really matter.. Sad...

Remember when we only had 3 channels to choose from on TV? Now we have hundreds...TV is not special anymore..
I think this is what is happening with music.. How many songs does an average ipod hold? 1000?

I see youth ministry going back to a more quiet time.. of prayer, meditation, reflection, scripture, and devotions.

That's the Point of view from where I sit.. I know it is a cultural thing, but that is what my teens like to do now. I have some teens that hate music.

 

Of courcse that logic is completely flawed. Many books stores sell Bibles: secular and otherwise. They would be foolish if they didn't. The Bible is and remains to be the best-selling book in the world. It always has been. Even in every different nation of the world there is still only one Bible. Even if we fight over versions and translations when it comes right down to it there is only one Bible.
That argument is flawed from the get go.

But to find traditional hymns in a secular store is almost impossible. The reason: they aren't God;y; they are worldly. Unlike CCM which appeals to the carnal side of man hymns appeal to the spiritual side of man and lift him up to praise and worship in God.
God doesn't need performers to entertain him. He doesn't need entertainment. That is what is found in HMV and in like stores. That is what the majority of CCM is. And that is why you don't find songs like "Rock of Ages" a hymn of worship not of entertainment; one that lifts the spirit up to God; not appeals to the flesh.
DHK

 

Which is why I used the word "ALSO" in my previous post. We do not design our music for unbelievers but we do keep them in mind. We play music that worships God, engages the heart and mind, fits our cultural context, and affirms the message. We would be fools not to consider unbelievers in our context but we would also be fools to design our music exclusively for unbelievers. One of our primary questions regarding our music is: does it engage our audience? Of course we also ask if the song is appropriate, God-honoring, etc.

To engage our audience, our band will also play good "secular" songs in our services, although I do not make the "secular - spiritual" distinction that many on this board make. Can you hear that can of worms opening?

 

Amazon : Audio CDs : hymns

1213 results

An fyi that HMV's online store is partnered with Amazon.ca which has over 600 hits for "hymns" under the audio CD category.

 

And what is sad is that you cannot even see the error of your own logic.

And the truth of the matter is, you can go to a number of venues and buy Nelly on the same aisle as you can buy Rock of Ages. But even if you could not, your line of reasoning is still absurd. We do not determine whether something is "worldly" or not by whether you can buy that item at HMV. Do you really want to use that argument?

Of course someone that is willing to say the majority of CCM is "entertainment" would have no problem with absurd arguments (unless you can suddenly judge the motives and hearts of thousands upon thousands of musicians).

I don't mind people arguing against certain forms of music, but at least use logical arguments that make sense and have some type of biblical support instead of the rubbish that has been presented in this thread. I am NOT against different genres of music for worship, yet I could present a stronger case against "rock" music in the church that what has been given here by those who actually hold that position.

 

Rock music is a high place in the lives of many believers that should be cast down. You may believe that it is OK to worship God using that same music that we used to listen to when we were fornicating and smoking dope, but it is going to be a snare down the road, if not to you then to your children. Whenever the Israelites did not cast down the high places, they always went back to idolotry.

 

Excellent post, James Newman!

 

I can only go by the experience that I have. I can purchase some classical music at our local HMV, but to find traditional hymns is impossible. There is a good reason for that. There is no market for them. There is a no market for music that is spiritual. Why should there be? HMV sells music that the world wants; music that appeals to the flesh.
My original premise was to define what was worldly and what was not, since so many naive people on this board were coming up with inane arguments such as: cars were worldly, houses were worldly, etc. These of course are all red herrings. The question is how does the world view music? What music does the world like? There is a large section of CCM in HMV stores. There is a reason for that. It is worldly music; it appeals to the flesh just like rock does. However there are no tradtional hymns in HMV. Why? It isn't worldly music. It doesn't appeal to the world. It doesn't appeal to the carnal nature of man. It is in a class of its own. It won't sell in secular worldly music stores, and yet CCM will. Why? Because the average unsaved person doesn't know the difference between CCM and secular rock. It is not the words that they listen to; it is the music. And the worldly music doesn't change.
DHK

 

Are we to assume everyone who has listened to rock in the early years has done this?

Will someone give me a list of 10 "Christian Rock" bands. As DHK says Christian and rock don't go together and I agree.

When I think of Rock and Roll I think of:

Molly Hatchet
Def Lepard
Kiss
Alice Cooper
Foghat
Foreigner
Lover Boy
Ozzy Osbourne
ELO

and many more. I can't think of any Christian Contemporary groups (that I listen to) that remotely remind me of that list.

 

Amen, DHK!

Putting the christian lyrics to the worldly music does one thing that is very deceiving. It gives the listener the feeling that he or she is pleasing God; that God will accept them because they are acknowledging His Son in the songs they sing.

The Bible paints a different picture. Paul wrote, 2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

and James wrote James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Jesus said of many that they 'worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.'

The music that has invaded our churches in the name of christianity has been in the world for years before hitting the sanctuary.

 

Ah, but Gib, many Christian Contemporary artists will tell you they listen to the groups you name as being worldly. They will further tell you that music inspires them to write and play the way they do.

 

I'm surprised that so far no one has quoted Deuteronomy 32:31 as some kind of proof text:
"For their Rock is not as our rock...."

 

Are we to assume everyone who has listened to rock in the early years has done this?

</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sure there are many that haven't. But anyone that has come out of that should know better than to try and incorporate any part of the unholy trinity (sex, drugs and rock-and-roll) into Christian worship. Those who do not come from that background and may ignorantly worship God through rock music should be aware of who erected that altar. Rock music was born out of a spirit of rebellion.