Christian Universalism?

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

Honestly, I'm not trying to 'take a stand'. I'm only trying to 'do justice' to the 'whole' of Scripture which is from beginning to finish the 'word of God'. Every word not just the ones we like. Keeping this in mind we simply 'have' to reconcile our positions with the the Revelation of the Old in the New and the New in the Old. Each speaks of the one and only God Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ.

Universalism isn't new, it's been with us all the way from the beginning with the Gnostic Marcion and his framing of the God of the Old Testament as a demiurge (i.e. an evil sub-god). Since a certain degree of hellenism has been with us through the centuries. I believe these extremes take on one of two forms historically.

I believe it is important to draw from Sacred Scripture, if we agree that it 'is' the word of God, what it reveals to us concerning God reaction to sin and wickedness. It is from these records that we can reflect on 'known' judgment toward such behavior and although I agree we find little or no reference of eternal 'anything' in the pages of the Old Testament it speaks loudly concerning the dire circumstances one finds themselves in disobediance to God.

There are two extremes which appear to challenge what I assert is the 'orthodox' Christian position of an eternal heaven and an eternal hell; universalism and annihilationism.

The Israelites preoccupation was not with life after death; it was with loving and obeying the Lord in this life. This earthly outlook is evident in the Old Testament passages depicting the major judgments of God on rebellious people. The text describing the Fall in Eden does not speak of life after death. Nor do the other Old Testament judgments, among the most important of which are the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptian plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea, and the captivities of Israel.

The Flood

Three things stand out in the Flood account. First, we see that God is holy and He punishes sin. He responded to human wickedness by pouring out his wrath on the earth. Second, the punishment consisted of sudden physical death; there is no mention of life after death. Third, the Flood narrative exhibits a wide variety of vocabulary. The wicked "perish, die," are "put to an end, destroyed, wiped out, cut off"--all of which signifies a temporal, earthly judgment.

The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah

The same observations made about the Flood apply here: God in His justice punishes sin, and the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah was the cataclysmic loss of human life.

The Plagues of Egypt and the Crossing of the Red Sea

God's temporal punishment of Egypt in the final plague and in the Red Sea similarly proclaims His holiness, His anger against sinners, and His power and majesty. The form that this punishment takes is the immediate loss of the Egyptians' lives at God's hand. Again, the text says nothing about life after death.

The Assyrian and Babylonian Captivities of Israel

The same themes resonate in these biblical accounts: God in His righteousness punished His people's sins with physical death. It is true that this time not all of the Israelites died immediately; thousands were taken into captivity. Nevertheless, few of them returned from captivity. Instead, the vast majority died in exile as punishment for their sins.

Conclusion

This probe of some of the primary Old Testament judgment passages yields valuable clues to God's disposition toward the wicked. First, it confronts us with a biblical picture of God that seems out-of-step with our contemporary world--God is not only loving and kind, but also holy and just. After warning sinners of the consequences of despising His love, He punishes them if they continue to rebel against Him.

Our review of the Old Testament judgment texts bears a second dividend. We find that the punishments described in them are consistently earthly and temporal, resulting in physical death. These passages do not speak of life after death or eternal destinies. However, since these passages do not speak of judgment after death, they do not teach annihilationism and therefore pose no threat to the orthodox view of eternal punishment.

Do you believe that there should be a marked difference between God's 'temporal' judgment and God's 'eternal' judgment? Would you agree that such calls into question God's Immutable Justice, which one might assert is the source of 'all' His Judgements, temportal and eternal?

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. - Galatians 6:7-8

 

Grace and Peace,

God is Loving

That God is a God of love is made abundantly clear in Scripture (Dt. 4:37; 7:7-8; Ps. 42:8; 63:3; 89:33; 103:13; Jer. 31:3; Hos. 11:1; Jn. 3:16; Rom. 5:8; 1 Jn. 3:1; 4:8-10; and others). By god's love is meant His affectionate concern. It is expressed in the Scriptures through the words "love," "lovingkindness", "compassion", and "mercy". This love is expressed in God's concern for both man's temporal and eternal welfare.

The loving concern of God is evidenced in the Old Testament, particularly in the Psalms, but the revelation of God's love reaches a high point with Jesus. Jesus had compassion in action. He was moved with compassion when He saw the sick, the bereaved, and the hungry. One of the most heartmoving scenes in the Scriptures is described for us when Matthew relates the lament of Jesus over Jerusalem: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Mt. 23:37). As moving as the show of compassion was in the life of Christ, the high point in the revelation of God's love did not come in the life of Jesus Christ. The highest point in God's love came at the cross. As St. Paul tells us, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8 ).

The death that Jesus died for sinners was not just an ordinary death. It was a death in which He paid the penalty for man's sin. He suffered the full wrath of God for man's sin. For the sinless Son of God to pay the full penalty for our sins in order that we who had sinned might be saved was the highest possible manifestation of God's love. God's love for us is real. It is love in action. It is love at a cost.

The love of God manifests the deep feeling of concern that God ahs for us. Some have denied that there is any feeling in God. I am in agreement with Thiessen's comment when we says: "Philosophers frequently deny feeling to God, saying that feeling implies passivity and susceptibility of impression from without, and that such a possiblity is incompatible with the idea of the immutability of God. But immutability does not mean immobility. True love necessarily involves feeling, and if there be no feeling in God, then tee is no love of God."

God feels His love toward us. He feels His wrath toward sin. Explantions of God which deny that He is personal and deny that He has feeling make us think He is not approachable. It is hard for us to believe that He could or would care for us. I believe that such explanations of God grow out of the idea that reason divorced from the rest of our personality has a special gift for finding the Truth. I think the reverse is true. We don not set our reason aside, but it functions as a part of our total personality.

When God's love is manifested toward those in misery and distress, we call it mercy. When God's love is manifested toward the ill-deserving, we call it grace because the emphasis is on the fact that it is unmerited. God's love toward sinners is mercy in that they are in misery and distress. It is grace in that they are ill-deserving.

Note: To be technical, grace, as saving grace, is not an attribute of God, Saving grace is a provision of God made possible through atonement. God could not save sinners simply by exercising an attribute of grace. This would be incompatible with His holiness. He can exercise grace only in accord with the provision of atonement and the application of that atonement on the condition of faith.

It is also of interest to note that grace gets its characteristic not only from love, but from holiness. That grace is offered is owed to the love of God. That it is free is owed to the holiness of God. the same holiness which demanded that the full penalty of sin be paid before man could be forgiven also demanded that no more could be cllected. Holiness will not tolerate an underpayment nor an overcharge if you can excuse the crude example. Holiness would not tolerate this. Therefore, the characteristic of grace that describes it as an unmerited gift owes its origin to holiness. Notice that once Holiness rejected as an attribute of God, so does grace. Man then stands on equal moral footing with his Creator and bargan his salvation with Him through moral merit.

the love of God as it is manifested to the good and bad alike is called benevolence. It was this kind of love that Jesus had in mind when He said, "For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Mt. 5:45).

 

In addition to Christ Jesus having paid the penalty for all sins, everyone will eventually come to Jesus for salvation. Here's an article that explains it pretty well. Click on the "Lake of Fire" link at the top of the article:

www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html#The%20Lake%20Of%20Fire

 

Hello bound,


I few notes...

I agree

I agree

humm. Well...there is feeling, just not as we know it.

I strongly disagree with this. 1st, we have no idea how and why God loved. This would be just a guessing game on our part.

As for humans, love as well as all other feelings are based on what we know. So this statement would hold true. Fear is the best Emotion to see this with. A toddler plays in the street because he has no fear of getting hit by a car. A child will burn his hand on the stove when his mother says it is hot, for he has no understanding of fear in hotness. Once he burns himself, he then understands HOT means fear to him.

I love basketball because I know of basketball and have played the game. This is how all of mans Emotion works. God knows all, so this does not apply to God. Here is the reason....

My knowing of basketball makes me love it to the point of playing it. You may love the game as well, yet your love is not as great as my love for the game. This is based on what has happen to us in the past. At some point you may have a better view of the game and love it even more then I.

Bottom line. Our emotion changes and is based on what happens to us. God's love never changes. If I'm in sin, God will still love me, but addresses the sin in my life with love. Anger is not hate. God can have anger toward me and still love me. My wife does this all the time. I cannot do so much that God will remove me from His Family. Gods love does not get greater. His love says at the top level at all times. It is a bad idea to link emotion to God in the same way we know it.

No..God gives his love toward us.

What is man..that thou are mindful of him?

I agree

I understand your meaning, but you left this wide open. But maybe you did this for a reason.

I agree with the rest of your post.


In Christ..James

 

Luke, chapter 15
10: Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

 

Grace and Peace Marcia,

Yes this is typically taken from looking at the verse:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22

Looking at this verse out of context, I agree with them, it appears, on face value, that the conditions for death have been met in Adam and the conditions for life have been met in Christ. Unforunately I think we need to look at the verse 'in context' to understand what Paul is saying to the Corinthians specifically.

Here's the verse before and after the verse quoted...

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a human being. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But in this order: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. - 1 Corinthians 15:21-23

What I desired to point out in verses 21 and 22 is that Paul is speaking generally about the 'resurrection of the dead' and then later in verse 15:23 concerning those who belong to Christ. Paul is not speaking about 'everyone' entering heaven or the Kingdom of God only 'those who belong to him'. I have no doubt that 'all' will be resurrected at the end of this age but I don't see how one can claim that Scripture posits 'Universal Salvation' and remain consistent with the 'whole of Scripture'. I just don't see that.

What surprises me is the verses in 1 Corinthians which they have to overlook to get to the 15th Chapter...

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

I could outline the 'conditions' necessary for entry into the Kingdom of God but we all here should honestly know them. We need to meet those conditions 'by grace through faith' to inherit the Kingdom. I don't see any way around that scripturally.

I'm sure there are other verses that they might throw out but I've never been able to square Universalism with the 'whole of Scripture' if I could I surely would it would take a lot of stress off a lot of people...

 

Grace and Peace,

Does Revelation have 'nothing' to tell us about God and His emotions?

I'm not sure I would make the claim that God will 'never' cease to love me. I'm honestly not sure. I do believe that God does react to His creation and this manifests in a certain sense emotions. Perhaps not 'so' unlike our own but I'm not sure. Regardless I do not adhere to the Philosopher's "Absolute Mind" theory.

Thanks for your comments.

 

Grace and Peace KenH,

Truly our Lord never addressed statistics but did allude to 'many who would not enter because they where not strong enough...

Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last." - Luke 13:22-30

Sobering to say the least...

 

Hello Bound,

1st you give good argument. I enjoy your post.

Are you talking about the winepress and wrath of God? I am sure God expresses His love, anger, hate, wrath what have ya. I just do not think it is linked to emotions as we know emotions. Our love can change going by what we know. Being that God knows all, His love, hate, wrath....will never change. Or...This is how I see it.

And this is what I'm sure of. If God is love, and He is,.. then His love will never change. What could God learn tomorrow, that He does not know today?

When we claim God is love, we are saying all love comes from God and we would have no love apart from God for all that we know of love and all that is love comes from God. For God is not only the quintessence of love, but also the essence of love.

1 Cor 13....
Love NEVER fails.

Grained I hold to Gods pure love because I am a Calvinist. If God does not have love that is pure and unchanging, Calvinisim does not work. Calvinisim is based on the pure love of Christ.


In Christ..James

 

Hello B Bob,

You see I do believe God expresses joy and love what have ya. I'm just kinda having a hard time believing He changes His level of love based on what we do. Is He happy when we come to know Him as Lord? Yes, but He knew we would come the day before. His joy didn't change..but maybe the angels joy changed.

Really my "feeling" is greater around the word love. Being that the Bible says little about other fellings and how they change...I'm up for change if someone can show me. But this i'm sure of... Gods love will never change.


In Christ...James

 

1 Timothy, chapter 4
9: This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

Brother Bob, are you a universalist?

 

Does 1 Timothy, chapter 4 prove, the doctrine of general redemption? Lets look at the context. If we do look at the context, we may see this maybe the most mis-used verse of the freewillers.

If these words represent God, as the Savior of all men, in that of spiritual salvation, they prove more than any other verse the universal salvation of all. To say that Christ is the Savior of all men, with respect to salvation for all, though not to the application of them all, is a distinction which must, in part, make the death of Christ in vain.

It is not the possibility of salvation , nor .....a conditional one, nor ....a putting of men into a salvable state, that was the intent of Paul when he says.."we toil and strive, [yes and] suffer reproach". This surly is not salvation, for then it is a works salvation. For then they that believe, would have no certain salvation......always needing to work and not knowing if they are saved. Yet... it is shown in the the Bible (one place...2 Cor 5)...We can be certain that He that believeth shall be saved.

Besides, if God is the Savior of all men, in the sense of salvation of the soul, then God must be the Savior of unbelievers, contrary to many passages of the Bible..... such as John 3:18, 36, Mark 16:16, Revelation 21:8.

The words are best looked at as providential of God.. Preserver, which all men have a share in. God the Father and not Christ, is here called the living God, who is the Savior of all men, that is, the preserver of all men....who supports them in their being.... and supplies them with all the necessaries of life....and especially them that believe, who are the particular care of his providence.



In Christ...James

 

No, I am not a Universalist. It is just I believe that all men were lost and had no way to redeem themselves and Jesus died and made a way for all but for them to receive that atonement they "must believe". All men were "lost" and there was no "door" out of that lost condition, hence Jesus became that "door" for all, but you must "believe."

I do not believe that Scripture is for worldly needs but to make an atonement for the sin of the world but without faith man will not receive that atonement and his sins are still against him. Atonement and Salvation are two different things.

Romans, chapter 3
"23": For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Romans, chapter 3
"9": What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

"10": As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

next

He is the saviour of all men in the sense He made a way for all to be saved by dying for all, but we must "believe" before that atonement is applied to our sins. The Scriptures continuously say "we must believe, thy faith hath made thee whole."


2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

Yes but observe how Paul speaks of the same thing in Romans 5:18 (NASB-U) :
“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”

This referrs to more than just resurrection here. It refers to justification from condemnation that fell to all men! We know from verse 17 that this grace must be received, but doesn’t the stament in verse 18 reveal that eventially there will be a time when all will believe and be justified? Is there a specific verse in the Bible that says for sure that it’s impossible for to be saved in the next life?

 

John, chapter 8
"21": Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

"22": Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

"23": And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

"24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Hebrews, chapter 3
11: So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16: For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17: But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18: And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

Thanks Brother Bob, and thanks for your enlightening posts on Calvinism.
Yes, people die in their sins all the time and we know that as long as they are unrepentant and unbelieving they can never be with Christ. My question was, "is it not possible to repent in the next life ?". We know that the Children of Israel could not enter into God's rest when they were in the wilderness, and in many times during their history had to be desciplined, but the door was always open for a return. Paul says that there will be a final return when "all Israel will be saved" Rom. 11:26.
How can we interpret John 3:16 if there is ever a time where God's grace is closed to the human race. What does john 12:32 mean when the Lord says that "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself"? I don't know, I'm just asking.

 

Smoky;
I guess the Scripture If you die in your sins where I am you cannot come would be suffecient but also;

Rev 10:6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Hbr 12:17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I can look for more later I have to go look for a grave back in the mountains now. be back later.

 

Thanks, I see your interpretation, but I can also see how a person could die in sin and be separated from Christ for a season and the scripture still apply. It doesn’t say that the person dieing in sin can never come . The Lord at one time said that even the desciples could not follow him now but would be able to later. John 13:33 (NASB-U)
"Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.'
John 13:36 (NASB-U)
Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later." I know the context is different, but it shows that the expression “you cannot come” doesn’t have to mean “permanently”



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Brother Bob, do you think this refers to the eternal state of Esau? I know he couldn’t get his father’s blessing. Maybe you believe it allegorically refers to a time where human beings can no longer repent. In that case it may be possible for a person to no longer be able to be repent on this side of the grave. How could this be true if it is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

But the desciples never died as a lost sinner. I don't believe in repentance after death. As Jesus said "ever how death finds you so will the resurrection receive you. Also He said the hour is coming when all that are in the grave shall come forth and unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation.

Esau;
Yes, but I also think Esau represents the lost man, for God said He would never receive Esau back.