Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armegeddon?

[KenH]

I hope that evangelical Christians will rise up and oppose Christian Zionism that has made serious in-roads in the past forty years among otherwise Bible-believing Christians and terribly distorts the Word of God -

www.christchurch-virginiawater.co.uk/articles/ivp.html

 

[church mouse guy]

Why don't you give us a working definition of this species since I don't know what one is? Remember I am a modified dispensationalist because I believe in the post-tribulation rapture. I look at this issue as one of bad economics for the West and for the Arabs that will need a perpetual handout to make a go of it in Gaza and the Bank. I don't feel sorry for the Arabs because I see they control from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean and have a population twice that of the USA. Yet the Arab League is an association of bankrupt worthless nations full of demands and threats about oil sales at high prices and wanting to force their awful religion upon the entire world. Just say no to Arabs--we only want to buy the oil at a fair price. We do not want to be under Allah and we do not want perpetual war with ragtag terrorists. The solution for the Arab League is to become like Turkey and kick the clerics out of the government.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Why don't you give us a working definition

"Christian Zionists see themselves as defenders of the Jewish people and in particular the State of Israel. They support Israel’s policies whether right or wrong. This support involves opposing those who are critical or hostile toward Israel. Consequently, most of them have little or no sympathy toward the Palestinians and are against any peaceful solution that may result in Palestinian statehood."

- www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/53

 

[church mouse guy]

Oh, well, I am not one of those guys, but I do see Palestinian statehood as a stupid blunder on the part of the West.

I think that the main supporters of Palestinian statehood are the Europeans who are trying to shake off their hatred for Jews.

It is not so much that I am pro-Israel as I am anti-Palestinian statehood. I am against the anti-Christian-Zionists because I am against Palestinian statehood. In short, I am anti-anti-Christian-Zionists on the question of realism.

 

[KenH]

Well, I support Palestinian Statehood as part of a comprehensive negotiated settlement. Thus, I am anti-Christian Zionism and anti-a position that opposes a Palestinian State.

 

[church mouse guy]

And I suppose that you want the USA and Europe to support this city-state until we go bankrupt and then it becomes the sole problem of Europe?

 

[KenH]

Nope.

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, let's see here. Suppose one day the 7 or 8 million or however many Arab Muslims decide they want to take over the state of Virginia and have a Muslim state in the middle of these United States. And suppose they decide they will do homicide bombings and terrorist acts until they get what they want. Except suppose they have declared they want to drive the rest of us into the sea and take over the whole United States. Shall we appease them because that is what they demand? Rightfully, some could claim they have been in the US for generations and it is the sacred land of allah because they said so.

 

[KenH]

You would do well to study up on the history, LE -

www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html

In 1948 the majority of the people in the land were Arabs, not Jews.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I would only add to Ken's definition that the only reason the Christian Zionists support Israel and oppose peace between them and the Palestinians is not as some might believe because of a love for the Jews or the nation of Israel, but rather, to fullfill an eschatological interpretation of the end times, namely pre-millinialism.

I would consider myself to be a Zionist in that I support a homeland for the Jews in Israel, and in that I support Israel in the conflict more than I don't because of political and moral reasons. But not for religious reasons. Furthermore, I also support the encouragement of Democracy and Human rights reforms as a pre-cursor to a Palestinian state that can live peacefully side by side with Israel. I don't think that Israel has anything to prove in the peace plan. IMO, they have proven themselves ready to make peace time and again. Rather, the PA must be reformed and prove itself worthy of governing a peaceful state of their own. The only responsibility that I would place on the nation of Israel would be to encourage democracy among the Palestinians and not repeat the mistakes of Oslo.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[church mouse guy]

Well, can someone tell me how this tiny city-state that never existed in the history of the world can support itself economically? I read where they currently have 50% unemployment. By the way, the fact that there may or may not have been more Arabs in Israel in 1948 deals with the failure of the British mandate and the power of Arab oil blackmail and Arab threats to fight openly for Germany in WW II.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
the PA must be reformed and prove itself worthy of governing a peaceful state of their own. The only responsibility that I would place on the nation of Israel would be to encourage democracy among the Palestinians and not repeat the mistakes of Oslo.

Right on!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
the fact that there may or may not have been more Arabs

It's an historical fact that there were, cmg.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Well, can someone tell me how this tiny city-state that never existed in the history of the world can support itself economically?

Ask Lumembourg or Hong Kong.

 

[church mouse guy]

Ken, you look at the snapshot of 1948 and you say whatever is is right. You ignore the duplicity that it took to make that snapshot. Gaza is not Europe and Hong Kong is not on a jihad as the Palestinians are--claiming that they worship the God of Abraham--ha!

You can say that this situation came about because of the West's demand for oil or you can say that this situation came about because the Arabs really liked Hitler in World War II and it is a leftover problem from WW II.

 

[KenH]

It doesn't matter at this point how it started...that can't be helped.

What we can help is ending this conflict through a diplomatic solution that benefits Israelis and Palestinians, whether they are Jews, Muslims, or Christians.

 

[church mouse guy]

What a cop-out! That is like saying that the illegals in the USA are here since last Christmas and therefore we can help end this conflict through a diplomatic solution with Mexico that benefits Americans and Mexicans whether they are Baptists or Catholics or devil-worshippers....

 

[KenH]

Who has been most of the immigrants into that land since World War II, cmg?

You are beginning to argue against your previous points.

 

[church mouse guy]

No, I am not making myself clear. The League of Nations said that the land was to be set aside for Jews and asked the British to administer the area. They were not able to do what had been decided. The Arabs rushed in hoping for a better life; they were not suppose to be let in. Therefore, in a sense, the Arabs are the illegals. They did not live there when the Turks ruled because the Turks made a wasteland out of Israel and it was an empty quarter.

Whatever claims they have should be paid off with money. There can never be any right of return or else you will have 10 million people living in Gaza--for no good reason.

 

[KenH]

I disagree, cmg. See www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/brit-mandate-pal-isr-prime.html .

From the link: "McMahon promised that if the Arabs supported Britain in the war, the British government would support the establishment of an independent Arab state under Hashemite rule in the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire, including Palestine."