Paul NEVER stated that Baptizm saves, ALWAYS that the Gospel does, and that is grace alone Faith alone!
Did the thief on the Cross get dunked?
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Christianity and Paganism - What is the Truth?
- Thread starter Adonia
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Did the thief on the Cross get dunked?
That is after I am saved though!
After you are saved?........OK..............and if "after" you are saved you don't repent, you don't confess your sins are you still saved by your faith alone?
Ware there is the word of God!No, that happens when we are "washed" in the waters of Baptism just as Paul said in 1 Cor. 6: 11
We are born again in water baptism just as Jesus said. This is when we receive the Grace that makes us born again.
"Truly, Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
How does that contradict that we are saved when we are baptized? The grace that saves is received to those who "believe and are baptized" just as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said.
You're alluding to Mark 16:16. The problem is that, as usual, you're not honest enough to quote the whole thing.
If you had, you would have seen that the corollary is not that he who is not baptized is not saved, but that he who does not believe is not saved, thus showing us that it is not the baptism that saves, but the belief that is expressed by the outward act of baptism.
Seems you don't trust Jesus.
In your reckoning, I guess I don't. However, as the Bible describes the trust God expects of us, I trust Him completely.
Didn't He know we are saved by grace?
Yes. He did. But since you're the one who insists one must do works, I think it's you who does not.
Faith comes by God moving us to believe (Active Grace) and when we are baptized we receive the Grace that saves (Sanctifying Grace)
No. Sanctification is a result of salvation, not a means of salvation.
There is no contradiction. Both faith and baptism are works of God.
Baptism is a work of man, not God. That's why your parents (man) take you to a priest (man) who performs the act in which you (man) must participate and which you (man) are damned (according to you) if you don't participate.
Douay-Rheims
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
HankD
Amen. The Sacrament of Confirmation. As a former Catholic you should have know this.
After you are saved?........OK..............and if "after" you are saved you don't repent, you don't confess your sins are you still saved by your faith alone?
Why wouldn't we repent and confess our sins?
Why wouldn't that be considered part of the "fruit" produced by regeneration?
Baptism is a work of God not man. It was God who gave it to us.You're alluding to Mark 16:16. The problem is that, as usual, you're not honest enough to quote the whole thing.
If you had, you would have seen that the corollary is not that he who is not baptized is not saved, but that he who does not believe is not saved, thus showing us that it is not the baptism that saves, but the belief that is expressed by the outward act of baptism.
In your reckoning, I guess I don't. However, as the Bible describes the trust God expects of us, I trust Him completely.
Yes. He did. But since you're the one who insists one must do works, I think it's you who does not.
No. Sanctification is a result of salvation, not a means of salvation.
Baptism is a work of man, not God. That's why your parents (man) take you to a priest (man) who performs the act in which you (man) must participate and which you (man) are damned (according to you) if you don't participate.
Regarding Mark 16:16 why would Jesus say, "Those who do not believe will not be baptized?"
Why would Jesus be redundant? He said what he meant. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. So simple yet you just refuse to believe.
How can you say " Sanctification is a result of salvation, not a means of salvation?'
The Word of God says that without holiness no one will see God. Hebrews 13:14
Rev 22 says that noting impure can enter heaven. Have you never read these verses?
I never said one "must" do works. One must say yes to the Grace of God and if one says yes then one will have good works since we were created for good works.
How can you be saved if you don't do the works God created you to do?
Of course Jesus said we are born again in baptism. Read John 3!
Nothing in John 3 says we're born again in baptism.
He told Nicodemus we must be born again and then he tells him how that happens, "Unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
Which is not referring to baptism.
How do I explain all the Catholics AND Protestants who live their entire lives without showing any fruit or evidence of having received the new nature that is given upon regeneration!
Repeating the question as a statement is not an answer to the question. Once again:
If Catholics are "born again" in baptism, then what about Catholics who are baptized but produce no fruit?
When was Cornelius born again? How do you know he was saved before he was baptized?
Because the text says he received the Holy Spirit and then was baptized.
Peter stated that ot was NOT the water that saves us, but the person of Jesus, for he is the Ark, not the water!It is the Grace received in baptism which saves us. It's amazing that the Holy Spirit inspired Peter to say baptism now saves you and you would rather hold on to what someone, who was not inspired, said 17 centuries later!
Why wouldn't we repent and confess our sins?
Why wouldn't that be considered part of the "fruit" produced by regeneration?
It is. It is a "necessary" fruit of regeneration and its not a one time confession of sins or turning back to God either.
People can freely backslide into sin and if they don't confess and repent they are not saved. Their "fruit" their "evidence" no longer exists.They have fallen from grace.
As Peter says they are like a dog who has returned to his own vomit or a pig who was washed but goes back to wallow in the mud.
Baptism is a work of God not man. It was God who gave it to us.
God also gave us the law, which is very explicitly called a work of man.
Regarding Mark 16:16 why would Jesus say, "Those who do not believe will not be baptized?"
Why would you expect Jesus to think somebody who didn't believe would be baptized?
Why would Jesus be redundant?
He said what he meant. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved.
And reading on through the rest of the verse, we see that the corollary is not "those who are not baptized will not be saved", but "those who do not believe will not be saved.
So simple yet you just refuse to believe.
Correct. I refuse to believe your simple explanation of your beliefs. Instead, I choose to believe the Word of God, including the parts you keep ignoring.
How can you say " Sanctification is a result of salvation, not a means of salvation?'
That's what the Bible says. How can I not?
The Word of God says that without holiness no one will see God. Hebrews 13:14
Rev 22 says that noting impure can enter heaven. Have you never read these verses?
Not only have I read them, I've taught them and preached on them many times.
I never said one "must" do works.
So now baptism isn't necessary?
How can you be saved if you don't do the works God created you to do?
Works are only evidence of salvation, not a means of salvation (James 2).
Peter says in verse 20 they were "saved through water".Peter stated that ot was NOT the water that saves us, but the person of Jesus, for he is the Ark, not the water!
He does not say they were saved through the ark.
He said baptism, which which corresponds to this, now saves you"
Accessed by faith alone, as that is how God set it up!Grace which comes from Christ is what saves.
The RCC makes the mistake of NOT taking the spiritual truth Jesus spoke of, but trying to keep it in the physical, as many did, see Gospel of John!That is biblical and when you understand that you will actually understand what the bible is saying and you will not longer have to dismiss clear statements such as "baptism now saves you."
Paul did not tell the Jailer to get sprinkled or dipped or immersed did he, in order to be saved now?No, that happens when we are "washed" in the waters of Baptism just as Paul said in 1 Cor. 6: 11
We are born again in water baptism just as Jesus said. This is when we receive the Grace that makes us born again.
"Truly, Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
It is.
Then why would you ask why a born again believer wouldn't do that?
People can freely backslide into sin and if they don't confess and repent they are not saved.
In Catholicism, yes. In Christianity, and according to the Bible, no.
As Peter says they are like a dog who has returned to his own vomit or a pig who was washed but goes back to wallow in the mud.
A good rule of thumb is, if a verse or passage begins with a conjunction, that's telling you that the previous verses are what you need to look at.
In this case, the two verses you're alluding to begin with a conjunction. That tells us we need to go back a little further to understand what these two verses are summarizing.
In this case, going back to the very beginning of the chapter, we see that these two verses are not referring to born again believers who's salvation Christ has been too incompetent to keep, but to those who knew the Gospel and benefitted from it, but who were not born again. Specifically, in v 1, we're told that they are false prophets and teachers.
="JohnDeereFan, post: 2311513, member: 9482"]God also gave us the law, which is very explicitly called a work of man.
Yes....but the law had "requirements" that every man must follow. Romans 2: 14-15
The requirements are the moral law of God.
Why would you expect Jesus to think somebody who didn't believe would be baptized?
If you don't believe then why would you be baptized? For an adult Faith is absolutely necessary with bpatism
And reading on through the rest of the verse, we see that the corollary is not "those who are not baptized will not be saved", but "those who do not believe will not be saved.
Of course those who don't believe will not be saved. An atheist will not be saved.
I haven't ignored anythingCorrect. I refuse to believe your simple explanation of your beliefs. Instead, I choose to believe the Word of God, including the parts you keep ignoring.
And how do you infallibly know your interpretation is correct?Not only have I read them, I've taught them and preached on them many times.
Baptism isn't a work. It is a sacrament given to us by God.So now baptism isn't necessary?
That's not what James says, "you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"Works are only evidence of salvation, not a means of salvation (James 2).
James is not talking about being justified "before men" but before God just as Abraham was with his work of obedience which is a work of God, a work that we were created to do.
The works that Paul condemns are works of the law, the law of Moses not the good works that we were created to do.
In fact Paul himself tells us that God will give eternal life according to those kinds of works. Romans 2:6-7
Show me how that is out of context with all of Scripture.[/QUOTE]Says the guy who just said we should embrace one out of context phrase and ignore the rest of the passage, as well as the analogy of scripture.
was the thief on the cross saved, as ALL he did was place faith in Jesus to save him!
Paul told the jailer the same thing Jesus said, Believe and be baptizedPaul did not tell the Jailer to get sprinkled or dipped or immersed did he, in order to be saved now?
Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved........and he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds and he was baptized at once, with all his family"
was the thief on the cross saved, as ALL he did was place faith in Jesus to save him![/QUOTE]Show me how that is out of context with all of Scripture.
The thief also admitted his guilt and accepted his punishment. he repented and confessed his sins. His faith alone did not save him.
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