tragic_pizza
New Member
And I am saying that they weren't drunk. Don't put words in my mouth or challenge me on strawman issues, thank you.Smoky said:
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Christians and alcohol
- Thread starter hillclimber1
- Start date
tragic_pizza
New Member
I know of at last two PC(USA) churches in my Presbytery which have weekly observances. We have a hard and fast rule, though, that when wine is offered, a nonalcoholic alternative (grape juice) must be as available as the wine. The last church I served in which had wine only served it when the method was "traditional" (passing plates), and had wine on the outer ring and grape juice within. With intinction we offered only grape juice.FriendofSpurgeon said:
Rufus_1611 said:
is this in reference to "look not upon it" when it's red? Well, then the text says nothing of white wine, then, does it? You can drink wine blindfolded, upside down with a straw if you like, and if you don't get drunk or are not an alcoholic, all the power to ya.Rufus_1611
New Member
Chemnitz said:
Your contention is presumptuous as I have neither quoted nor read from a concordance and I have read the whole Proverb more than once.
These verses are about being around drunkenness...
20Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
This is about drunkenness for they tarry long at the wine...
30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
However, this says "Look not thou upon the wine"...
31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
I believe this suggests that we are not only not to drink wine but we're not to even consider it and nothing about the rest of the Proverb suggests we should ignore the instruction to "Look not thou upon the wine".
This interpretation could possibly be in err but then when you combine it with:
"It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:" - Proverbs 31:4
And since I would pray that we all desire to be made kings, princes and priests in the Kingdom of God...
"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." - Revelation 5:10
...I would think we would recognize that it is not for kings and princes to drink wine nor strong drink and I have not yet seen a convincing Biblical argument for why Christians should.
webdog said:
Yes, you did use very flawed logic.
Let's review some passages, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. - I Cor 6:9-10
Where is the gluttony in the list?
Gal 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Where is the gluttony in the list?
Can one live his life without eating food? Of course not.
Can one live his live without drinking alcohol? Of course.
Now, if eating meat causes your brother to stumble, then its best to not eat meat. In fact Paul said, "It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble" - Rom 14:21
Of course he is talking about meat sacrificed to idols, which is not a problem today.
Rufus_1611 said:
The problem is that if you start at "look not..." you have divided up the proverb. The proverb starts with the question "who has woe?" and ends with "... I must have another drink." The whole thing smacks of a person in love with drunkness. "When it sparkles" definitely suggests somebody who overly craves wine aka an alcoholic. "when it giveth his colour in the cup" most definitely is referencing a drunk because their skin tone does take on the color of red wine as they become flush from the alcohol. The same with your reference to Proverbs 31:4 drinking in moderate amounts do not cause people to forget. These verses have little do with complete abstinance and more to do with drunkness.
FriendofSpurgeon said:
Yes, we do under normal circumstances. We've not done it for a few weeks as we've just elected a new pastor and he's in transition and getting ready to move here. The SBC i attened growing up did it probably once a month and the Pentacostals never did it once and don't do it as far as i know. A clarifiacation: alot of PCUSA churches are liberal at best and apostate at worst. There are still some holdouts that hold to doctrinal purity.
Grace and Peace to you,
Dustin
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I agree, unfortunately it's the same logic you set forth.
I didn't see snorting cocaine either...I guess that's not too important either.
Gluttony on this list would fall under the category of "and things like these" (sin).
Your point? One can live life without automobiles, too. Are they sin?
tragic_pizza
New Member
Ah, yes, a little ad hominem attack to cap off a nice day.Dustin said:
I guess we have to define "doctrinal purity" in exactly the way you dictate in order to be free from apostasy, huh?
:laugh: (at you)
I knew I was gonna get in trouble for that. No offense to you at all, I know you might just be the only other Presby on this board. I'm just saying that from a standpoint of the church standards and confessions, some PCUSA churches lack, some PCA churches lack for that matter. It may be a secondary issue but bad doctrine breeds more bad doctrine. If a minister misaplys justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then from that misapplication, the rest of thier doctrines suffer and change the meaning totally. I'm not on a high horse here, I've been to libby churches and I've sat under horrible teaching. God in His grace turned me from it and by God I'm better for it. There are just some times where inclusiveness is dangerous and a line needs to be drawn. Purity on the essentials (justification by faith alone, Scriptural inerrancy and authority, etc), leads to a healthy church. Ordaining gay ministers, doing gay civil union services, that just screams bad doctrine to me. That's not the way I dictate doctrinal purity, that's the way the Bible does. Paul spent a lot of his ministry killing bad doctrine and teaching the churches right doctrines. I wasn't trying to get up your nose, and I do apologize if I have offended you. I do pray that all those under bad teaching will be taken out of it as I was. And God bless all the churches that holdout in spite of whatever is going on.tragic_pizza said:
Grace and Peace to you,
Dustin
RE: Gluttony, the forgotten sin
Ah yes, I find it hard to take a preacher seriously on personal sanctification and abstinance from anything when he is grossly overweight. Unless he has a glandular problem.
Why is it we seldom hear this sin preached on? How many people's lives have been made more difficult because of gluttony and its results? It causes God's people not to have the energy or physical capacity to do some works that he might have us do.
I don't drink (for personal reasons), but I know I have the liberty to do so.
I could not condemn someone as being in sin because he might have a glass of wine with his dinner.
Ah yes, I find it hard to take a preacher seriously on personal sanctification and abstinance from anything when he is grossly overweight. Unless he has a glandular problem.
Why is it we seldom hear this sin preached on? How many people's lives have been made more difficult because of gluttony and its results? It causes God's people not to have the energy or physical capacity to do some works that he might have us do.
I don't drink (for personal reasons), but I know I have the liberty to do so.
I could not condemn someone as being in sin because he might have a glass of wine with his dinner.
webdog said:
No, it's not the same logic. I have a direct forbidance of being drunk. You do not have a direct forbidance of gluttony or driving automobiles. It would only be the same logic if you had a passage of scripture that forbids gluttony or driving automobiles!
Let's review again, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." - I Cor 6:9-10
What if God's limit for being drunk is different than your limit?
If you chose to drink, you are walking toward a cliff blindfolded and you don't know where the edge is. Just how many steps are you willing to take?
You are right, cocaine was not on the list. Is it forbidden? Can a person be sober minded when under the influence of drugs, whether it is alcohol or cocaine?
* Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded - Titus 2:6
*teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, - Titus 2:12
*Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, - I Pet 1:13
*Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion - I Pet 5:8
*but let us watch and be sober. -I Thess 5:6
*that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith,- Titus 2:2
I simply raise the question, if drunkeness is forbidden, what is God's standard to determine when one is drunk?
Look at other things on the list. Where does God draw the line at one being sexually immoral? How many steps toward sexual immorality do I want to take? I don't want to take any steps in that direction.
How about idolatry? How many steps toward idolatry can I take before I become an idolator? I don't want to take any steps in that direction.
The same is true with drunkeness or anything else on that list or the list in Gal 5. I don't want to take any steps in their directions.
Please keep your points germane to the conversation. You are only throwing chaff when you bring up automobiles.
tragic_pizza
New Member
I don't know where you get your information from, but ordination of gay persons is prohibited by the PC(USA) Book of Order. We simply cannot do it.Dustin said:
Further, in every state save one, the government is persisting in denying equal human rights to all people. So these civil unions you speak of cannot be done, either.
Hey, what happened to the debate about wine?
Besides there is no debate about how liberal the Politically Correct excuse me the Presbyterian Church USA is, the only church more liberal is the Episcopalian Church. jk :laugh:
Seriously though, despite the continued fight against the ordination of gays and what not the PCUSA is still on the liberal side of things.
Anyhow enough about PCUSA lets get back to wine.
I think it is time to take the debate in a new direction and debate which labels are the most acceptable label for Christians. :tongue3:
Besides there is no debate about how liberal the Politically Correct excuse me the Presbyterian Church USA is, the only church more liberal is the Episcopalian Church. jk :laugh:
Seriously though, despite the continued fight against the ordination of gays and what not the PCUSA is still on the liberal side of things.
Anyhow enough about PCUSA lets get back to wine.
I think it is time to take the debate in a new direction and debate which labels are the most acceptable label for Christians. :tongue3:
First off, if you want to know God's standards to determine when one is drunk, all you have to do is look at Scripture. This link has all of the references to wine and other strong drink. Start there...mman said:
http://wooga.drbacchus.com/bible/alcoholr.html
Second, the Bible does classsify gluttony as something forbidden. It sounds like you are looking for an excuse to eat as much as you want using "the exact words are not found in the Bible" argument. Gluttony is classified alongside drunkeness. They are one in the same. Drunkeness is gluttony of alchohol, plain and simple.
Deu 21:20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
Pro 23:21 for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.
What if God's definition of gluttony is different than yours? Sounds like it may be.
tragic_pizza said:
Nope, I don't drink.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Good, because spending time with you would be painful.hillclimber1 said:
webdog said:
Surely you can do better than this????
Gluttony is never classified as a sin. You even had to go to the old testament to pull a reference to it. The proverbs are not a list of sins, however, they are general truths. The same thing is said about sleep as being a glutton and drunkard. Prov 20:13 -Love not sleep, lest you come to poverty;
Is sleep also a sin? You cannot find in the New Testament where sleep is a sin. It's not listed in the things that will keep you out of heaven. However, being a drunkard is.
Jesus was accused of being a glutton and we know He did not sin. Therefore, God's definition may be different than man's. Yes, under the old law, that was nailed to the cross, there are a couple of references to gluttony. I do not advocate gluttony. I never have and never will. However, gluttony of alcohol is absolutly wrong, I agree. You cannot equate gluttony of alcohol to gluttony of food. Furthermore, everyone who is fat is not a glutton and not all gluttons are fat. Do you judge gluttons on appearance or on how much they eat?
Under the new law, I have direct, clear, easy to understand statements that say that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom. That is what this thread is about.
Still, the simple fact remains, the first drink is the first step toward getting drunk. I retreat to safe ground. Being drunk is subjective to us, but not to God. If God's going to keep people out of heaven because of drunkeness, then He has a standard.
Alcohol certainly has an appearance of evil to me and to many others also. Christians are to abstain from every form of evil (I Thess 5:22).
So, what is God's limit when one becomes drunk? That is a question nobody can answer definitively. What I can say definitively is that if I don't drink, I cannot become drunk. If I don't drink, I am avoiding a form of evil. If I don't drink, it will not cause my brother to stumble.
Appearance as they say is in the eye of the beholder. I say alcohol has the appearance of tastiness with a good meal. Besides you should not call evil that which God has called good, don't forget poor Timothy and his tummy troubles.
I think a case can be made indirectly from the references to drunkeness to be able to argue that God's standard is impairment. Several of the references bring up forgetfulness, a lust for more and wasting of resources, all of which are a mark of impaired judgement. A few drinks are not going to do it to people, there are a rare few exceptions but they are do to mitigating medical reasons. Most of the so called giddiness people feel after only a few drinks is a placibo effect brought on because they think they are feeling the alcohol. A similar jolt occurs for people with caffinated drinks, they experience an immediate rush but really it takes over an hour for caffiene to cause an effect. Please note I said a few because dosage does have an effect on how soon it enters the blood stream.
Since God does not give us an exact number of drinks or even a blood alcohol percentage then we really need to base it on when a person becomes impaired as he does make it quite clear that impairment is a no no.
I think a case can be made indirectly from the references to drunkeness to be able to argue that God's standard is impairment. Several of the references bring up forgetfulness, a lust for more and wasting of resources, all of which are a mark of impaired judgement. A few drinks are not going to do it to people, there are a rare few exceptions but they are do to mitigating medical reasons. Most of the so called giddiness people feel after only a few drinks is a placibo effect brought on because they think they are feeling the alcohol. A similar jolt occurs for people with caffinated drinks, they experience an immediate rush but really it takes over an hour for caffiene to cause an effect. Please note I said a few because dosage does have an effect on how soon it enters the blood stream.
Since God does not give us an exact number of drinks or even a blood alcohol percentage then we really need to base it on when a person becomes impaired as he does make it quite clear that impairment is a no no.