Christians and Foolish Risks

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett: Giving God the "glory" isn't give God "credit" for our successes. It's giving God the recognition that He is Sovereign and that we are worms no matter what life dishes out to us, good or bad.

HP: This is great food for thought. It would seem to me that in our attempts to 'give God credit' it might well be purely selfish in motivation. If I give God the credit, I in return might have a better chance of gaining the notoriety, attention, feelings, etc, that satisfy my own selfish ego.

 

[Analgesic]

Interesting subject here in which I have posted about before, the only responses (when any) almost always being that I'm "hijacking" a thread. Well, not this one, since that's the subject from the beginning.

Alright, to what extent must we consider what is more risk than something else we could do, which is relative in itself in questioning whether we must do one or the other(s) at all? If a Chrsitian is in need of a job and knows of 2 possible openings, one in a factory and one in a coal mine, with reason to believe the coal mine job is more dangerous than the factory job, then must he accept only the factory job? Or must he just make every possible effort to be offered the factory job, even if the waiting period is getting long? And if he finds out he definitely will not be hired by the factory, just how risky can the coal mine job be to be 'too great' a risk to him as an element of the Body of Christ?

Okay, the above example may be about making a living; not, as in the case of bullriding, a form of entertainment with risks involved to obtain notoriety, personal ambition, or possibly wealth. If the question is risk in an acitivity which is not a necessity, then is anything with the slightest risk, which does not envelop a necessity, an offense to the Body of Christ by putting such Body into unnecessary risks? Maybe even doing your own yardwork would qualify, since people do get cuts, stings, and inhale 'harmful' fumes in doing so, and having neatly trimmed hedges or grass that 'looks good' is not a necessity. But then, if you would be violating a local ordinance by not keeping your yard and hedges trimmed, does Romans 13 take precedence over not risking your body unless positively necessary?

As for sports in general, virtually any sport has a greater risk of physical injury than in not participating in such. So are sports evil? The only NT references to physical fitness activities I can think of off-hand is where Paul says such activity 'profits little" compared to spiritual activities, and once where he mentions about running a race and only one is a winner. But should we not jog, for example, because the inicidence of sprains or foot blisters is greater than if we don't?... or should we jog because our overall physical health would be better (for most of us) if we did?

That post is worth reading again, folks.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

One of the greatest dangers I see in all of this is the tendency to compare a known dangerous risk that is done for the sheer enjoyment of an adrenaline rush, notoriety, pride, selfish interest, promise of quick 8 sec. monetary gain, etc,, with other know risks. It is as if though ones logic amounts to, if any other behavior has a risk, it somehow diminishes the evil effects of the risk in the sport I desire to partake in or all other risky endeavors.

Scripture tells us that those that compare themselves to themselves or among themselves, are not wise. There is no stopping the trend and path to overstepping the bounds of reason and Scriptural instruction once such a path of comparisons is started. For instance, say modesty is the issue. If one were to compare a mini skirt to a swim suit, the minis skirt might appear to be more modest. If I were to compare a g-string to a regular swim suit that covered the hips and thighs, the swim suit might appear in some sense to be more modest. Does this indicate in any way that any of the above are actually modest? I think not.

Close to home, we try and compare the salaries of our local treachers with that of neigboring states and try and make a case that because we are not the highest, or even the lowest, that as such it demands of us to raise the salaries of our teachers. When we accomplish that task, someone else becomes slightly lower than we, and they raise their salaries, which in turn starts a never ending cycle of salary increases.

Take the issue at hand. One might say that sky diving is as risky as bull riding, or scuba diving is as risky as sky diving, or crossing the interstate on foot is as risky as racing a car and racing a car is as risky as skydiving. Can we in wisdom conclude then that we cannot make a wise decision to refrain from one activity unless we would refrain from all, or that if we participate in one we could not make a wise decision to refrain from another or all of the rest?

Can anyone else see the problem when we say that one cannot make a judgment concerning one risk without calling all risks evil to one degree or another, or that if other activities that contain risk are engaged in by one, that somehow that justifies the risks taken by another in a different area, somehow making all risks equally ‘evil’ and therefore either all or none inherently wrong?

 

[TC]

Does not Scripture instruct us to make our living by working with our hands? Where are the godly examples in Scripture of earning a living by such risk taking means that gains its impetus by the desire of others to satisfy some carnal desire to see others so risk their lives in foolish sport?

Bull-riders do work with their hands - it's really hard to hold on to that strap around the midsection of the bull with your foot or mouth.

On the serious side, how do you know that he wasn't called by God to do what he did? Everything in life has risks involved. Paul used the example of a runner training to win the prize as a way to live the Christian life. Note: Paul did not tell people not to run or never to enter an olympic race.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TC: On the serious side, how do you know that he wasn't called by God to do what he did? Everything in life has risks involved. Paul used the example of a runner training to win the prize as a way to live the Christian life. Note: Paul did not tell people not to run or never to enter an olympic race.

HP: Let me throw this out there to see what the reaction might be. What if I were to say that I was called to minister to AIDS patients. Now we know that there would most likely be at least some risk to that venture. Could we realistically compare that risk with say ‘bull riding for Jesus,’ whatever that might mean to someone?

How could one know for certain if it was a calling from God or a self-made desire?

 

[Alcott]

Some of us-- perhpas many of us-- do not differentiate those 2 concepts anyway. People do what they choose to do-- go to seminary, drive cars, ride bulls, dig ditches, preach the gospel-- and each of these has its own risks. I will venture to say going to Saudi Arabia to preach the gospel is likely more dangerous, for the person's well-being, than riding a bull.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Alcott: I will venture to say going to Saudi Arabia to preach the gospel is likely more dangerous, for the person's well-being, than riding a bull.

HP: Help me out here. I can see how one could be called to minister to those in SA, and that by doing so certain risks would have to be taken in the course of that calling. I can also see clearly why God might call some to that ministry, that risks of necessity must be taken to fulfill that call, and how it could directly influence the kingdom in the course of the risks taken.

In the case of bull riding, I cannot see how the activity of riding a bull would be necessitated to carry out any calling of God upon ones life. Can you?

 

[Alcott]

No, but frankly I can't see how burning a bull on the altar, as was commanded to the Israelites, carried out a legitimate calling of anything; particularly considering that later, in the book of Hebrews, it plainly says animal sacrifices could never take away anyone's sin.

But how about a not-too-dissimilar example-- football. For a man to like the sport of football, to play it for money, to study it and to coach others playing it-- how does that serve any calling? Ordinarily it's hard to see. But with a man named Tom Landry, with the money and friends he'd made and a successful insurance business it helped him develop in the off-season, it brought him to a meeting of Christian businessmen in which he began to consider the overall plan of his life, and he saw that, in the pursuit of a passion of his-- football-- if he were successful as a coach it would bring him more of the oportunities to be a national leader in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and to otherwise speak and write about the 2 things that came before football in his priorities; God and family. His autobiography tells much about his perspective on this. So maybe he is a key to understanding how any endeavor-- no matter how far it may seem to be from gospel truth-- can be used positively for the Kingdom. It depends amost entirely on whether the individual recognizes that.

 

[TC]

HP: Let me throw this out there to see what the reaction might be. What if I were to say that I was called to minister to AIDS patients. Now we know that there would most likely be at least some risk to that venture. Could we realistically compare that risk with say ‘bull riding for Jesus,’ whatever that might mean to someone?

How could one know for certain if it was a calling from God or a self-made desire?

You are only responsible for being obediant to the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life. I am responsible for the same in my life. You seem to be saying that God would never lead someone to ride bulls or anything else that you would not risk doing yourself and that people that do are only in it for money, pride, adrenilin rush, ect.

There are many Christians involved in secular business and industry - from computer programming to banking to manufacturing. Yet, you are not questioning the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives - only those that take risks that you would not take yourself.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Does not Scripture instruct us to make our living by working with our hands?

This is almost comical to me. I used to roadrace motorcycles professionally. Now, I didn't take risks; I was very conservative and very smart. I prepared my body, my mind, and my machinery. I would walk the track, looking at the camber, crown, etc., then during the practice sessions, I would try different race lines to see how I got the quickest time, best acceleration out of the corner, etc.

By being careful, the best I ever finished was 5th place, with a few top 10's, but most importantly, I finished every single race I ever started. I scored enough points that although people would beat me in individual races that they would take risks to try to win the next one and crash. Once, I even made the ESPN crash of the week because I was the only rider in a group of about 10 guys who remained upright through a pretty terrific crash. (I did crash once at Talladega while passing a Harley, but I dropped it in such a way that I was able to get back up and on the track and only lost two places and passed the Harley a couple of laps later.)

But, I scored points in every race, and in so doing, I was invited to the championship race, while those who beat me in individual races did not.

My point? During all of this, I was never seriously injured. But, while walking out the door at work, I slipped and fell and broke my ankle in four places, ripped all the cartilege and ligaments loose, had to have 4 surgeries, have a permanent steel plate, 8 screws, and two pins.

Life is full of risks, and we can't (nor should we) avoid them all.

I was able to preach and witness at the race track quite a bit. It was very fruitful. On Sunday mornings, leading up to race time, we would have a church service in the race tower or somewhere, and encourage everyone to come. Usually, it was someone who wanted to fellowship. Sometimes it was a fan who wanted to hobnob with "famous" people. Either way, it was fruitful. (Except for the guy who raced under the number 666. Several people tried to witness to him, but several of us are convinced that it wasn't just a show and that he was truly demonized.)

But, we can conclude from this that high speed racing is safer than walking, therefore walking is evil.

 

[DHK]

I have found, in general, that Christians hate the word "sacrifice," when it comes to Christian service. In worldly amusements they are willing to play hockey with a broken bone in their foot; in football, a dislcocated shoulder; in basketball, a bad elbow, etc. People suffer pain in the sports arenas and are very willing to do so. But in Christian service, sad but true, sacrifice and suffering is generally unknown. Most people are afraid to walk across the street and witness to their neighbor.

"He died doing what he wanted to do," is basically a selfish statement, especially regarding amusements. As someone replied many people could die doing what they want to do in the realm of illegal activity. So that kind of selfish desire has no bearing in the Christian life. A life that says "I am crucified with Christ," does not at the same time say, "I will do what I want to do."

Perhaps many of you have heard of the Raines family. There is a family that died doing what they wanted to do. They were missionaries in India laboring among the outcasts of India, among those that not even the government would care for--the lepers. And yet, at the same time, the Hindu extremists were so concerned that their loving, tender care of these outcasts of society would win these outcasts over to Christianity that they hatched a plan to do away with them. When the Raines along with their two sons were in their car the Hindu surrounded it and torched, setting ablaze the family and cooking them to death on their own car. It was a horrible death to die. News of it quickly spread all over the world. What a cowardly act to do; especially to those who would care for those who no one else would care for.

One might say: "At least they died doing, not only what they loved doing, but what God wanted them to be doing." For they knew they were in the center of the will of God, and that is what counted most. I can't say the same for those that ride bulls, especially if they are Christians.
Christ said: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daly, and follow me." Are we willing to deny ourselves, crucify the flesh, sacrifice to the extent that we will follow him to wherever he would have us serve?

 

[mman]

Does not Scripture instruct us to make our living by working with our hands? Where are the godly examples in Scripture of earning a living by such risk taking means that gains its impetus by the desire of others to satisfy some carnal desire to see others so risk their lives in foolish sport?

The same argument can be made about football players, NASCAR drivers, baseball players, basketball players, and anyone in the "entertainment" business.

Every job has some inherent risks, therefore, risk is not the deciding factor. Some jobs are certainly riskier than others, but Christians are not required to work jobs with the least amount of risks.

Driving trucks for a living is one of the most dangerous jobs you can have. Truck drivers are providing a service and I think all would agree that this is honest work. Risky, but not sinful.

Commercial fishermen have extremely dangeous jobs, yet that has never been condemned, even in Jesus' day.

We are commanded to provide for our own. As long as it is not sinful and is done in an honest manner, I will never speak against it. At the same time, we each have a measure of common sense and I think God expects us to use it.

Having said all that, to me it is a question is it sinful to "work" in the entertainment business? Can a person provide an honest living in the entertainment business as long as the activity is not inherently sinful?

I cannot think of any example or instruction that would discourage or prohibit this. The command is for honest work. I do not know what would disqualify this activity from being "honest work".

 

[Hope of Glory]

I can't say the same for those that ride bulls, especially if they are Christians.

So, you can determine that God doesn't want anyone riding bulls? I guess those people don't need a positive Chritian witness, when there's lepers to be cared for.

Perhaps everyone should go out and care for lepers and ignore everyone else?

No, I think it's rather presumptuous to judge that God doesn't want anyone riding a bull. Or anything else that is not immoral.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Commercial fishermen have extremely dangeous jobs, yet that has never been condemned, even in Jesus' day.

Jesus even went fishing with them. Hmm... Do you suppose that Jesus was encouraging them to sin by taking risks?

I should have thought of the commercial fishing aspect, because I'm so close to it. I've picked nets in 25 foot seas.

Some of them even get glory, being featured on TV. Most recently (that I'm aware of), the Time Bandit was featured on the show "Most Dangerous Jobs". So, they received fame and recognition, and they are taking great risks.

 

[DHK]

So, you can determine that God doesn't want anyone riding bulls? I guess those people don't need a positive Chritian witness, when there's lepers to be cared for.

Your right, the bulls don't need a positive Christian witness (after all that is what they are riding). :laugh:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, it does say preach to every creature...

Seriously, though, what about the other participants and the audience, etc.? This is a sport that grew out of a necessity, and it just sees who does it best.

 

[DHK]

Well, it does say preach to every creature...

Seriously, though, what about the other participants and the audience, etc.? This is a sport that grew out of a necessity, and it just sees who does it best.

How does any sport grow out of a necessity. Sports are mere entertainment. Nowadays many are seriously injured by them. One doesn't have to "ride the bulls" to witness to the others. At various rodeos some church people go to the gates and hand out tracts. But that could still be done by rural based churches visiting the farmers in their areas. It is the same principle as, you don't have to be a drunk to witness to a drunkard. Neither do you have to enter a bar to witness to them. You can witness to the same people in their homes when they are sober.

When speaking of sacrifie, the Raines ministered in India, a nation of one billion people. There were many saved because of their sacrificial lives (not all lepers). There outstanding work and sacrifice had a trickling down or domino effect into America. There were many in some Bible Colleges that were challenged to be full time missionaries to foreign nations. Their sacrifice brought much more fruit then they would ever imagine.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Somewhat off topic -- or at least off the current trend of this thread: but today I was attempting a little family history research, and went to the website of the Highfield Road Baptist Church in Dartford, England, where my wife's grandparents were married a little over a hundred years ago. The website shows the pastor in his hobby of hang-gliding and avers that at one time he was the only clergyman in England who admitted to this sport! Wow ... looks risky to me. But I suppose not if you know what you are doing. Imagine the proclamation opportunities (somehow I am thinking about Joseph Bayly's little book of a few years ago, "The Gospel Blimp"). :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JS: Somewhat off topic

HP: Not in the least. It is not any particular activity we are discussing, just risky behavior done primarily for selfish interest. I would think that hand gliding would be of that nature.

Tell us more about the “Gospel Blimp.”

 

[hillclimber1]

This is almost comical to me. I used to roadrace motorcycles professionally. Now, I didn't take risks; I was very conservative and very smart. I prepared my body, my mind, and my machinery. I would walk the track, looking at the camber, crown, etc., then during the practice sessions, I would try different race lines to see how I got the quickest time, best acceleration out of the corner, etc.

By being careful, the best I ever finished was 5th place, with a few top 10's, but most importantly, I finished every single race I ever started. I scored enough points that although people would beat me in individual races that they would take risks to try to win the next one and crash. Once, I even made the ESPN crash of the week because I was the only rider in a group of about 10 guys who remained upright through a pretty terrific crash. (I did crash once at Talladega while passing a Harley, but I dropped it in such a way that I was able to get back up and on the track and only lost two places and passed the Harley a couple of laps later.)

But, I scored points in every race, and in so doing, I was invited to the championship race, while those who beat me in individual races did not.

My point? During all of this, I was never seriously injured. But, while walking out the door at work, I slipped and fell and broke my ankle in four places, ripped all the cartilege and ligaments loose, had to have 4 surgeries, have a permanent steel plate, 8 screws, and two pins.

Life is full of risks, and we can't (nor should we) avoid them all.

I was able to preach and witness at the race track quite a bit. It was very fruitful. On Sunday mornings, leading up to race time, we would have a church service in the race tower or somewhere, and encourage everyone to come. Usually, it was someone who wanted to fellowship. Sometimes it was a fan who wanted to hobnob with "famous" people. Either way, it was fruitful. (Except for the guy who raced under the number 666. Several people tried to witness to him, but several of us are convinced that it wasn't just a show and that he was truly demonized.)

But, we can conclude from this that high speed racing is safer than walking, therefore walking is evil.

Now this is a prime example of a risky business done for all the right reasons. Not the least of which is a personal love for the sport. Your witnessing and preaching is precisely what you should have been doing, and I commend you for it, and bull riders and ropers and clowns, all need the Lord, and who better than another rodeo man to serve them.

Each man has areas of interest, such as mountain climbing or sky diving, that someone will accuse them of being "out of God's will" but the Lord wants to use each of us where we "are", not where someone else says we should be.

I have for many years wanted to help troubled youth in a dirt bike ministry, but it never happened but not because it couldn't have, but because I wasn't the one to do it. But it is probably being done somewhere successfully.