What exactly are you?
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Christians and the perception of others
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
What exactly are you?
This is what I was getting at.
Sometimes it is best to consider how other people view a group to which one belongs. Such mirrors can be informative (I suspect those who answered "no" are most likely Calvinists). But looking at articles published within this past decade Calvinists are generally presented as being viewed as hateful, arrogant, etc. The question is why? Is it the doctrine? Is it how the doctrine is taught? Is it how Calvinists engage with others?
I suppose it is probably a combination.
What I'm getting at is a reputation that has been discussed in articles (outside of an internet context).
If they are considered arrogant because some believe their theology comes across that way then it is nothing that can be helped. But if it is an issue perhaps with evangelism, then maybe it can be helped. There was a time when Calvinists enjoyed a more popular place within Christianity (even among those who disagreed with them).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
It depends on what you mean by hateful. If by hateful you mean dogmatic, then yes. If by hateful you mean they are just mean and belittling of others, no.
By hateful I mean by how others view Calvinists.
I am SBC and this has been an issue for us within the past decade. I was thinking the other day how "arrogant, hateful, etc" are often associated with Calvinism or Calvinists just as it is often presented that non-Calvinists are somehow less concerned with doctrine.
I do not mean that Calvinists are actually more hateful (I'm sure some are and some are not). When I was a Calvinist I was the most loving Calvinist around.
The reason I wonder is I believe that we can learn from how others view us. If our theology has a reputation of arrogance (even if it is an unearned reputation) I think we should ask ourselves why it is so. Is there a reason groups who are non-Calvinistic are so opposed to Calvinists while often appearing less opposed to other disagreements?
A human being.... oh and a Christian
"Having been nurtured in the warmth of the doctrines of grace for my entire Christian life, I am often dismayed at charges that are leveled against Calvinism, especially those that would depict the Reformed faith as legalistic and harsh. Unfortunately, the more I get around the more I understand these charges, which though wrongly applied to Calvinism are rightly applied to some Calvinists." (Reformation 21)
The above quote hits home to what I am asking. I could not imagine some of the attitudes attributed to Calvinism to apply to people like Tim Keller or John Piper (maybe John MacArthur, but I like him anyway). That said, there is a reason for the perception and given the attention it has gained over the past decade (from those within and without) it is not something that we can simply dismiss as broad brushing.
The above quote hits home to what I am asking. I could not imagine some of the attitudes attributed to Calvinism to apply to people like Tim Keller or John Piper (maybe John MacArthur, but I like him anyway). That said, there is a reason for the perception and given the attention it has gained over the past decade (from those within and without) it is not something that we can simply dismiss as broad brushing.
Yea.... That's something like I had in mindWho cares about the opinions of the non-elect?
In a hundred years, they will all be worm food in the cosmic trash burning.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Could it be that those (substantial numbers?) who accuse Calvinists of being “hateful” are simply projecting their own hate filled hearts upon those they disagree with.
peace to you
LoL I'm not saying they are Universalists. You want to hear what a Presbyterian sounds like? It will make most Calvinist here puke.
"GOD's Grace means everyone is loved by God" Even some Calvinist here might pop a vein thinking about that one.
If any calvinist around here or carm sounded like Presbyterian i'd choke or spit my drink all over the screen.
“I Like You Exactly As You Are”
Excerpts :
=========
No one. No, not one. No one does good.
Notice this scripture does not say, “No one IS good.” In fact our creation stories say quite the opposite. “God looked at all God had made and saw that it was very good.”
No, we are good.
But we do not DO good.
Our behaviors are riddled with sin.
Our personhood, is very good!
But unlike everywhere else in this world. God does not wait until we fix our behaviors to show us mercy and love. God does not hold acceptance over our heads like a carrot, or a cake, or ice cream, to motivate us to DO GOOD.
No, God loves us and calls us family WHILE we are still sinners.
=======
My comments:
Who did what!? A Calvinist said this.!!!!
======
And God does not WAIT till we get our act together. God loves us in our brokenness. God loves us in our sinfulness. God hates the sin and the way it ravages us and our communities. But God loves each of us.
=====
My comments:
HOw diditty when!?
This is what the VAST Majority of Calvinist sound like. 75 Million.
THey help homeless people. They tell folks God loves them. Totally different from you know.....
My vote is "NO" Most Calvinist are not hateful at all. We just need them to voice here a bit more.
Here's a statement of belief from one place:
Forest Hill Presbyterian Church exists to serve God and all creation by growing together in love, extending sanctuary, and strengthening community so that all can know God’s love.
What We Believe as Christians
We believe that our primary purpose in life is to glorify God and love God forever. We trust that God knows and wants the very best for us, and every person. So we seek to follow God’s lead in our daily lives and to shine God’s love and light wherever we are.
Because God has loved us, so we love others. We believe that God has loved us first, and in being loved, we learn how to love others. All loving springs from God at the source. Since God loves everyone, we seek to love everyone. Since God loves unconditionally, we ask God for grace to love others unconditionally. Since God loves us just as we are, we seek to love others just as they are. Since God loves us enough to turn us around when we’re headed in harmful ways, we seek to speak the truth in love to one another, recognizing that our vision and perception of truth is always flawed and incomplete and that God alone knows what is best and what is true. Since God gives us the power to choose, we respect each person’s power to choose. Since God hates evil and all that would kill and destroy, we also hate evil, seeking to name it and doing our part to stop it. Since God weeps with those who weep and rejoices with those who rejoice, we seek to do the same, supporting and loving our neighbors. Since God is still moving and active, alive and at work in our world making the world a more just and whole and loving place, we are also active and at work in our communities and the world to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God.
====
WOW! ^ That's Calvinists.
Last edited:
Particular
Well-Known Member
Why wouldn't a Christian believe God elected to save him/her?
By hateful I mean by how others view Calvinists.
I am SBC and this has been an issue for us within the past decade. I was thinking the other day how "arrogant, hateful, etc" are often associated with Calvinism or Calvinists just as it is often presented that non-Calvinists are somehow less concerned with doctrine.
I do not mean that Calvinists are actually more hateful (I'm sure some are and some are not). When I was a Calvinist I was the most loving Calvinist around.
The reason I wonder is I believe that we can learn from how others view us. If our theology has a reputation of arrogance (even if it is an unearned reputation) I think we should ask ourselves why it is so. Is there a reason groups who are non-Calvinistic are so opposed to Calvinists while often appearing less opposed to other disagreements?
You are quoting the PCUSALoL I'm not saying they are Universalists. You want to hear what a Presbyterian sounds like? It will make most Calvinist here puke.
"GOD's Grace means everyone is loved by God" Even some Calvinist here might pop a vein thinking about that one.
If any calvinist around here or carm sounded like Presbyterian i'd choke or spit my drink all over the screen.
“I Like You Exactly As You Are”
Excerpts :
=========
No one. No, not one. No one does good.
Notice this scripture does not say, “No one IS good.” In fact our creation stories say quite the opposite. “God looked at all God had made and saw that it was very good.”
No, we are good.
But we do not DO good.
Our behaviors are riddled with sin.
Our personhood, is very good!
But unlike everywhere else in this world. God does not wait until we fix our behaviors to show us mercy and love. God does not hold acceptance over our heads like a carrot, or a cake, or ice cream, to motivate us to DO GOOD.
No, God loves us and calls us family WHILE we are still sinners.
=======
My comments:
Who did what!? A Calvinist said this.!!!!
======
And God does not WAIT till we get our act together. God loves us in our brokenness. God loves us in our sinfulness. God hates the sin and the way it ravages us and our communities. But God loves each of us.
=====
My comments:
HOw diditty when!?
This is what the VAST Majority of Calvinist sound like. 75 Million.
THey help homeless people. They tell folks God loves them. Totally different from you know.....
View attachment 3613
My vote is "NO" Most Calvinist are not hateful at all. We just need them to voice here a bit more.
Here's a statement of belief from one place:
Forest Hill Presbyterian Church exists to serve God and all creation by growing together in love, extending sanctuary, and strengthening community so that all can know God’s love.
What We Believe as Christians
We believe that our primary purpose in life is to glorify God and love God forever. We trust that God knows and wants the very best for us, and every person. So we seek to follow God’s lead in our daily lives and to shine God’s love and light wherever we are.
Because God has loved us, so we love others. We believe that God has loved us first, and in being loved, we learn how to love others. All loving springs from God at the source. Since God loves everyone, we seek to love everyone. Since God loves unconditionally, we ask God for grace to love others unconditionally. Since God loves us just as we are, we seek to love others just as they are. Since God loves us enough to turn us around when we’re headed in harmful ways, we seek to speak the truth in love to one another, recognizing that our vision and perception of truth is always flawed and incomplete and that God alone knows what is best and what is true. Since God gives us the power to choose, we respect each person’s power to choose. Since God hates evil and all that would kill and destroy, we also hate evil, seeking to name it and doing our part to stop it. Since God weeps with those who weep and rejoices with those who rejoice, we seek to do the same, supporting and loving our neighbors. Since God is still moving and active, alive and at work in our world making the world a more just and whole and loving place, we are also active and at work in our communities and the world to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God.
====
WOW! ^ That's Calvinists.
Thank God!
Go through there books and confessionals
1. God in infinite and perfect love, having provided in the covenant of grace, through the mediation and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, a way of life and salvation, sufficient for and adapted to the whole lost race of man, freely offers this salvation to all men in the gospel. Rv 22.17, Jn 3.16, 1 Jn 2.1-2, Acts 2.38-39, Mt 11.28-30, 2 Cor 5.14-19, Ti 2.11, Heb 2.9, Lk 24.46-47, Jer 31.3, 1 Jn 4.9,16, Ti 3.4-5. Heb 13.20-21, 12.22-24, 8.10, Eph 2.8, 1 Tm 2.5-6, Heb 9.26, 1 Cor 15.3, Rom 5.6,8, Jn 10.10-11, 11.25, 14.6,19, Phil 1.21, Acts 4.12, Rom 1.16, Heb 5.9, 2 Pt 3.9, Mt 24.14, Jn 4.42, Rv 11.15, Rom 6.23, 2 Cor 9.15.
2. In the gospel God declares his love for the world and his desire that all men should be saved; reveals fully and clearly the only way of salvation; promises eternal life to all who truly repent and believe in Christ; invites and commands all to embrace the offered mercy; and by his Spirit accompanying the word pleads with men to accept his gracious invitation. Mt 28.19-20, Acts 4.12, Jn 6.37-40, 17.3, Acts 16.30-31, 2.38, Gal 2.16-20, Rom 1.16-17, 4.5, Acts 13.38- 39,48, 2 Pt 3.9, Mt 11.28-30, Mk 1.14-15, Acts 17.30, Rv 22.17, Ez 33.11, Is 1.18, Lk 13.34, Jn 3.16-17, 1 Jn 4.9-10, Is 45.22, Heb 10.19-22, Jn 14.6, Rom 10.9, 1 Pt 1.8-9, Heb 3.7-8, 2 Cor 6.2, Heb 4.16, Rom 5.8, 2 Thes 3.5, Phil 2.12-13, Jn 16.13-14.
Again its an open offer. They can walk up to any stranger and say GOD loves them and wants them to be saved.
Call a Presbyterian ask Does God want me to be saved? I'm convinced they will say YES.
Opposed to the I DON'T KNOW we get here.
They even baptize infants already welcoming them into God's family.
I'll prob listen to some of their sermons tonite.
They often come across this way, but in general Calvinists are not better educated than other Christians. I think you may be right that they are sometimes condescending (we all can be at times). Perhaps the issue is some confuse theology itself with spiritual truth or the "meat" of the Word.
Because he isn't God?
I remember a professor explaining to us that the debate over Calvinism was an undergraduate issue and now that we were in graduate school the issue is the love of God. The debate over Calvinism is philosophical. Calvinism (the five points) were birthed out of a philosophical issue (James Arminius' question over the "problem of evil" and predestination in salvation). The differences are philosophical (both sides affirm the same passages but hold different interpretations of those passages). And all issues have been debated for centuries (there will be no new developments or objective biblical supports for either side) and Calvinism cannot be proven objectively by Scripture (it can be proven or disproved to the satisfaction of the believer in each camp).
I think the reason that Calvinists can be so dogmatic is that of the different positions it is by far the simplest to understand. One point builds on the other. If you hold doctrine then you can simply look to Scripture to support it. When you look at non-Calvinistic views there are many diverse positions. There is Amyrladiniansm, Wesleyan Arminianism, Reformation/ Classic Arminianism, and many that are not even of Calvinistic trajectory. If you are in a camp, the Calvinistic camp is the strongest (even in the Five Articles, the fifth was inconclusive). So if you are looking for a "strong doctrine", Calvinism has an appeal (especially if you have the view that churches are failing to teach doctrine adequately). It is almost an all inclusive "kit" or packaged theology where as other views are sometimes less concise.
I think the reason that Calvinists can be so dogmatic is that of the different positions it is by far the simplest to understand. One point builds on the other. If you hold doctrine then you can simply look to Scripture to support it. When you look at non-Calvinistic views there are many diverse positions. There is Amyrladiniansm, Wesleyan Arminianism, Reformation/ Classic Arminianism, and many that are not even of Calvinistic trajectory. If you are in a camp, the Calvinistic camp is the strongest (even in the Five Articles, the fifth was inconclusive). So if you are looking for a "strong doctrine", Calvinism has an appeal (especially if you have the view that churches are failing to teach doctrine adequately). It is almost an all inclusive "kit" or packaged theology where as other views are sometimes less concise.