Christians and the perception of others

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Go through there books and confessionals

1. God in infinite and perfect love, having provided in the covenant of grace, through the mediation and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, a way of life and salvation, sufficient for and adapted to the whole lost race of man, freely offers this salvation to all men in the gospel. Rv 22.17, Jn 3.16, 1 Jn 2.1-2, Acts 2.38-39, Mt 11.28-30, 2 Cor 5.14-19, Ti 2.11, Heb 2.9, Lk 24.46-47, Jer 31.3, 1 Jn 4.9,16, Ti 3.4-5. Heb 13.20-21, 12.22-24, 8.10, Eph 2.8, 1 Tm 2.5-6, Heb 9.26, 1 Cor 15.3, Rom 5.6,8, Jn 10.10-11, 11.25, 14.6,19, Phil 1.21, Acts 4.12, Rom 1.16, Heb 5.9, 2 Pt 3.9, Mt 24.14, Jn 4.42, Rv 11.15, Rom 6.23, 2 Cor 9.15.


2. In the gospel God declares his love for the world and his desire that all men should be saved; reveals fully and clearly the only way of salvation; promises eternal life to all who truly repent and believe in Christ; invites and commands all to embrace the offered mercy; and by his Spirit accompanying the word pleads with men to accept his gracious invitation. Mt 28.19-20, Acts 4.12, Jn 6.37-40, 17.3, Acts 16.30-31, 2.38, Gal 2.16-20, Rom 1.16-17, 4.5, Acts 13.38- 39,48, 2 Pt 3.9, Mt 11.28-30, Mk 1.14-15, Acts 17.30, Rv 22.17, Ez 33.11, Is 1.18, Lk 13.34, Jn 3.16-17, 1 Jn 4.9-10, Is 45.22, Heb 10.19-22, Jn 14.6, Rom 10.9, 1 Pt 1.8-9, Heb 3.7-8, 2 Cor 6.2, Heb 4.16, Rom 5.8, 2 Thes 3.5, Phil 2.12-13, Jn 16.13-14.


Again its an open offer. They can walk up to any stranger and say GOD loves them and wants them to be saved.

Call a Presbyterian ask Does God want me to be saved? I'm convinced they will say YES.

Opposed to the I DON'T KNOW we get here.

They even baptize infants already welcoming them into God's family.

I'll prob listen to some of their sermons tonite.

Try listening to the attachment I provided and reading that churches confession of Faith. The church you are referencing is a PCUSA and that denomination has gone off the rails long ago.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here it is....

I remember a professor explaining to us that the debate over Calvinism was an undergraduate issue and now that we were in graduate school the issue is the love of God. The debate over Calvinism is philosophical. Calvinism (the five points) were birthed out of a philosophical issue (James Arminius' question over the "problem of evil" and predestination in salvation). The differences are philosophical (both sides affirm the same passages but hold different interpretations of those passages). And all issues have been debated for centuries (there will be no new developments or objective biblical supports for either side) and Calvinism cannot be proven objectively by Scripture (it can be proven or disproved to the satisfaction of the believer in each camp).

I think the reason that Calvinists can be so dogmatic is that of the different positions it is by far the simplest to understand. One point builds on the other. If you hold doctrine then you can simply look to Scripture to support it. When you look at non-Calvinistic views there are many diverse positions. There is Amyrladiniansm, Wesleyan Arminianism, Reformation/ Classic Arminianism, and many that are not even of Calvinistic trajectory. If you are in a camp, the Calvinistic camp is the strongest (even in the Five Articles, the fifth was inconclusive). So if you are looking for a "strong doctrine", Calvinism has an appeal (especially if you have the view that churches are failing to teach doctrine adequately). It is almost an all inclusive "kit" or packaged theology where as other views are sometimes less concise.

So I can understand... your edu is from Liberty?

 

[JonC]

Here it is....

So I can understand... your edu is from Liberty?

Yes (Liberty and Troy State). Undergrad at several universities, both on campus and online. But my grad school was all online. (I was in the Army, going to school on your dime ) .

 

[Particular]

I remember a professor explaining to us that the debate over Calvinism was an undergraduate issue and now that we were in graduate school the issue is the love of God. The debate over Calvinism is philosophical. Calvinism (the five points) were birthed out of a philosophical issue (James Arminius' question over the "problem of evil" and predestination in salvation). The differences are philosophical (both sides affirm the same passages but hold different interpretations of those passages). And all issues have been debated for centuries (there will be no new developments or objective biblical supports for either side) and Calvinism cannot be proven objectively by Scripture (it can be proven or disproved to the satisfaction of the believer in each camp).

I think the reason that Calvinists can be so dogmatic is that of the different positions it is by far the simplest to understand. One point builds on the other. If you hold doctrine then you can simply look to Scripture to support it. When you look at non-Calvinistic views there are many diverse positions. There is Amyrladiniansm, Wesleyan Arminianism, Reformation/ Classic Arminianism, and many that are not even of Calvinistic trajectory. If you are in a camp, the Calvinistic camp is the strongest (even in the Five Articles, the fifth was inconclusive). So if you are looking for a "strong doctrine", Calvinism has an appeal (especially if you have the view that churches are failing to teach doctrine adequately). It is almost an all inclusive "kit" or packaged theology where as other views are sometimes less concise.

Now this, Jon, is a wonderfully pride-filled post you provided. It explains, however, why so many seminaries are so useless in training pastor's.

 

[Particular]

Because he isn't God?

So, since we are created, not Creator, we shouldn't believe that God has elected to save us?
That leaves us with utilyan's position where it is impossible to ever declare we are saved. Is that your position as well? Are you incapacitated by thinking your salvation is in doubt?

 

[JonC]

Now this, Jon, is a wonderfully pride-filled post you provided. It explains, however, why so many seminaries are so useless in training pastor's.

It may be pride filled. I can't say. He did not strike me that way but I do not know him well. His point (that there are more important issues for the Church than TULIP) seems fair to me.


Why do you believe the prof (who is a Calvinist, BTW) is full of pride?

Have you noticed that you often accuse others who disagree with you as prideful? Here you do not even know the guy but because he said something you do not like you declare him prideful.

 

[Reformed1689]

The reason I wonder is I believe that we can learn from how others view us. If our theology has a reputation of arrogance (even if it is an unearned reputation) I think we should ask ourselves why it is so. Is there a reason groups who are non-Calvinistic are so opposed to Calvinists while often appearing less opposed to other disagreements?

Because darkness hates the light.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do not believe Christ died for all men for if Christ died for every man, every man would certainly be saved. Christ is God and is not a failure. Matthew 1:21 tells us, "he shall save his people from their sins." If all men are His people, all men are saved. We know this is not true for Scripture teaches otherwise (Jude 11,13; Revelation 20:14-15). Hell shall be occupied. The Scriptures teach unmistakably that Christ died only for God's elect which are His sheep, His children, those whom He foreknew (Romans 8:29,30). The Scriptures teach that the souls of those who die go either to hell or heaven upon death and when Christ came into this world it had already stood for about four thousand years. Many people had died and their souls had gone either to hell or heaven.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am wondering (for my own purposes not related to this forum) about your opinion.

Do Calvinists typically come across more hateful towards other Christians than than others (non-Christians and Christians alike)?

Yes, By those who really are ignorant over what we hold with and teach about theology, as many see us having God as a puppet master, nasty God who can't wait to shove people off into Hell!

 

[JonC]

It is not about doctrine (the OP) but about how people groups come across to other people. It is not even about whether or not Calvinists are arrogant, hateful, etc, but how they are often perceived (regardless to the validity of the perception).

The idea that Calvinists come across (as a group) as arrogant, abrasive, etc. is not a secret among many (both Calvinists and non-Calvinists). R.C. Sproul discussed this at length. So has James White.

The problem, IMHO, is with Calvinists who are blind to how they can be negatively perceived by others. Calvinistic ignorance to how a group may be negatively prejudiced can become a barrier that is otherwise easily overcome.

A few years ago I introduced a study of Desiring God by John Piper. It was met with resistance not because of the content but because Piper is a Calvinists and people worried that it was an attempt to sneak in Calvinistic doctrine. By that standard, Calvinists could be suspect of any study that was not Calvinistic. The divide is something that continues not only because of legitimate differences but also because ignorant people are unable to grasp how they may be viewed (whether fair or unfair).

I believe the poll on this thread may indicate the correctness of my conclusion. It may not be fair for non-Calvinists to hold preconceived negative ideas about Calvinists, but my experience is this is often the case.

 

[rsr]

That leaves us with utilyan's position where it is impossible to ever declare we are saved. Is that your position as well?

I wouldn't put it that way. I believe it is possible to have a reasonable assurance, but more importantly, a blessed hope, of salvation. I do not have the same certitudeas, for example, that if I throw a ball into the air gravity will bring it back to earth, or that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. I think it is presumptuous to "declare we are saved."

My position differs from utilyan because Catholics believe that one sin will remove you from a state of grace, though it's much harder post-Vatican II to determine where that line is.

Are you incapacitated by thinking your salvation is in doubt?

No. Why would I be?

 

[utilyan]

Try listening to the attachment I provided and reading that churches confession of Faith. The church you are referencing is a PCUSA and that denomination has gone off the rails long ago.

I understand the PCUSA is more liberal right. I'm reading of the orthodox, your link and their reference of the Westminster confession

I'm quoting stuff from your link. The difference is saying We are reaching out to all people because God wants to save them, God loves them. vs I DON'T KNOW



What about the preaching? Preaching is to be approached as the time when God speaks through His word through the preacher, who faithfully lays open, explains, makes clear and passionately proclaims the word. Martyn Lloyd-Jones called preaching "Logic on Fire." Is God interested in speaking to believers or unbelievers? Yes! If the preacher seeks to exalt Christ and make Him known, the Holy Spirit will use the message as a means of grace to draw unbelievers to repentance and saving faith and to draw believers closer to Christ through repentance and faith.

What does our outreach look like? Should we seek to serve the community in ways they would appreciate, by doing good works and being a blessing to our neighbors? Absolutely! Yet the church is not just another community service organization and we must not forget two vital truths:

1. The best thing the church has to offer her neighbors is Christ.
2. We have not truly loved our neighbors as ourselves if we have withheld the Gospel from them.

So we must seek opportunities to serve and to speak, to love in word and deed, to demonstrate the Gospel and the life-changing power of the grace of God through our loving actions and our grace-filled words. This looks different in each community's specific context and is the calling of all church members, not just the pastor and the elders, but surely the pastor and elders are called to lead by example in this area as in all areas.

Should we focus more on reaching the lost or on growing believers toward maturity? Yes, of course we should! Jesus' commission for the church is to "make disciples of all nations" and that means both helping unbelievers know Jesus and helping professing Christians learn to follow Him better.

Should our outreach efforts be primarily local or global? Again, the answer is yes! We are to love our neighbors and to take the Gospel to those who have never heard it. We should be fully engaged in our neighborhood and in unreached parts of the world.

 

[utilyan]

I do not believe Christ died for all men for if Christ died for every man, every man would certainly be saved. Christ is God and is not a failure. Matthew 1:21 tells us, "he shall save his people from their sins." If all men are His people, all men are saved. We know this is not true for Scripture teaches otherwise (Jude 11,13; Revelation 20:14-15). Hell shall be occupied. The Scriptures teach unmistakably that Christ died only for God's elect which are His sheep, His children, those whom He foreknew (Romans 8:29,30). The Scriptures teach that the souls of those who die go either to hell or heaven upon death and when Christ came into this world it had already stood for about four thousand years. Many people had died and their souls had gone either to hell or heaven.

"I do not believe Christ died for all men for if Christ died for every man, every man would certainly be saved. "

That would be considered a sin, because you make God a LIAR.



1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.



The guy who is being pointed out as unsaved says the exact same thing to himself "I do not believe Christ died for me"

He doesn't believe the testimony that God has given concerning his son. Which is --->11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

That HE DID die for that unsaved person.


So if a guy pops up unsaved and says JESUS DIDNT DIE FOR ME. is he telling the truth? or is he making God a Liar as scripture states?

 

[JonC]

Because darkness hates the light.

 

[Yeshua1]

I wouldn't put it that way. I believe it is possible to have a reasonable assurance, but more importantly, a blessed hope, of salvation. I do not have the same certitudeas, for example, that if I throw a ball into the air gravity will bring it back to earth, or that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. I think it is presumptuous to "declare we are saved."

My position differs from utilyan because Catholics believe that one sin will remove you from a state of grace, though it's much harder post-Vatican II to determine where that line is.



No. Why would I be?

Apostle John wrote his gospel to give to us full certainty of eternal life now in Christ, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

"I do not believe Christ died for all men for if Christ died for every man, every man would certainly be saved. "

That would be considered a sin, because you make God a LIAR.



1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.



The guy who is being pointed out as unsaved says the exact same thing to himself "I do not believe Christ died for me"

He doesn't believe the testimony that God has given concerning his son. Which is --->11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

That HE DID die for that unsaved person.


So if a guy pops up unsaved and says JESUS DIDNT DIE FOR ME. is he telling the truth? or is he making God a Liar as scripture states?

Jesus died for the sin of all His own....
For the sheep, but not the goats!

 

[utilyan]

I wouldn't put it that way. I believe it is possible to have a reasonable assurance, but more importantly, a blessed hope, of salvation. I do not have the same certitudeas, for example, that if I throw a ball into the air gravity will bring it back to earth, or that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. I think it is presumptuous to "declare we are saved."

My position differs from utilyan because Catholics believe that one sin will remove you from a state of grace, though it's much harder post-Vatican II to determine where that line is.



No. Why would I be?

Look even to tie your shoes wrongly is a SIN.

We don't say if you murder someone you WILL lose your grace. But that you may/can lose it or to better word LEAVE IT. Because even in a great sin like murder its because of grace we reach out to forgive. Grace will stay just like a good parent, Just the like the father ready to get his prodigal son back.

Unrepentant evil that is not clouded by invincible ignorance, I would call dangerous, No matter what in the end GOD judges a person's heart.

In the end what needs to be emphasized is ACTUAL personal relationship with Jesus. Because someone can do billion more sins then me and I can be more accountable for one thing.

I think the more deeper you get to understanding God's love for his children the more you start to adopt a true sense of responsibility where you might hold yourself accountable to the degree that the suffering for not coming through and offending God hurts more than any hell/torture penalty you would have to introduce to a selfish person to make sense of it.

There is parents out there where if the doctor injects a baby THE PARENTS start crying and wish they could carry that suffering for their child.

There is a point where your own sense of ending up in heaven or hell is out of the picture because you love and care for others, you don't want them to suffer, you want them to be right with God.

Some folks don't understand this until they lose someone in their arms, you know. When all you care about is the peace and happiness for another, and could care less what could happen to yourself. That love that need be conveyed is God's voice.

I'm going to hell , im going to heaven. That's playground, childish things. Looking at the least of brethren, whoever is most insignificant, could even be someone who aggravates you and seeing Jesus Christ there too.

I don't need heaven or eternity. Give me 5 minutes trusting God and letting him do right.

 

[Particular]

I wouldn't put it that way. I believe it is possible to have a reasonable assurance, but more importantly, a blessed hope, of salvation. I do not have the same certitudeas, for example, that if I throw a ball into the air gravity will bring it back to earth, or that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. I think it is presumptuous to "declare we are saved."

My position differs from utilyan because Catholics believe that one sin will remove you from a state of grace, though it's much harder post-Vatican II to determine where that line is.



No. Why would I be?

Thank you for sharing your position.

I believe, like Paul, we can be confident in our faith and declare that Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us according to his promise.

 

[Particular]

Look even to tie your shoes wrongly is a SIN.

We don't say if you murder someone you WILL lose your grace. But that you may/can lose it or to better word LEAVE IT. Because even in a great sin like murder its because of grace we reach out to forgive. Grace will stay just like a good parent, Just the like the father ready to get his prodigal son back.

Unrepentant evil that is not clouded by invincible ignorance, I would call dangerous, No matter what in the end GOD judges a person's heart.

In the end what needs to be emphasized is ACTUAL personal relationship with Jesus. Because someone can do billion more sins then me and I can be more accountable for one thing.

I think the more deeper you get to understanding God's love for his children the more you start to adopt a true sense of responsibility where you might hold yourself accountable to the degree that the suffering for not coming through and offending God hurts more than any hell/torture penalty you would have to introduce to a selfish person to make sense of it.

There is parents out there where if the doctor injects a baby THE PARENTS start crying and wish they could carry that suffering for their child.

There is a point where your own sense of ending up in heaven or hell is out of the picture because you love and care for others, you don't want them to suffer, you want them to be right with God.

Some folks don't understand this until they lose someone in their arms, you know. When all you care about is the peace and happiness for another, and could care less what could happen to yourself. That love that need be conveyed is God's voice.

I'm going to hell , im going to heaven. That's playground, childish things. Looking at the least of brethren, whoever is most insignificant, could even be someone who aggravates you and seeing Jesus Christ there too.

I don't need heaven or eternity. Give me 5 minutes trusting God and letting him do right.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Hebrews 9:15,27-28 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand the PCUSA is more liberal right. I'm reading of the orthodox, your link and their reference of the Westminster confession

I'm quoting stuff from your link. The difference is saying We are reaching out to all people because God wants to save them, God loves them. vs I DON'T KNOW



What about the preaching? Preaching is to be approached as the time when God speaks through His word through the preacher, who faithfully lays open, explains, makes clear and passionately proclaims the word. Martyn Lloyd-Jones called preaching "Logic on Fire." Is God interested in speaking to believers or unbelievers? Yes! If the preacher seeks to exalt Christ and make Him known, the Holy Spirit will use the message as a means of grace to draw unbelievers to repentance and saving faith and to draw believers closer to Christ through repentance and faith.

So you think that preaching is a component of salvation?