Christians and violence

[Helen]

We got into the Pacific war because of Pearl Harbor, but into the Atlantic side of things because of the bombing of London.

 

[Petrel]

I think even if those things had not happened it still would have been the right thing to do.

 

[TexasSky]

"So, outside of self-defense, is it okay biblically speaking to invade another country, for example? Is being able to give our reasons for it good enough? "

Happened all the time in the bible.

How do you think the Jews came in possession of the promised land to begin with?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
"So, outside of self-defense, is it okay biblically speaking to invade another country, for example?

Such a thing is never absolutely black and white. It a people are oppressed by its government, and ask for an ally to come to its aide to liberate them from their government, then it is not wrong to do so. However, to refrain from doing so is likewise not wrong. There's no "best decision". It's often an issue of a fork in the road.

The bottom line is what the people in a country think after an outside force has come in. The German people were not happy with the Allies during WW2, but were happy with them when the war ended. The people in Kuwait were quite happy to see us during the Gulf War. The Iraqi people in Iraq today are quite happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein and grateful for their liberation (despite what you see on the nightly news).

 

[TexasSky]

Johnv - That wasn't my remark. That was a quote from someone else.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Johnv - That wasn't my remark. That was a quote from someone else.

Oh, uhhhh, I knew that. I was just testing to see if, uhh, you'd catch it. You did. Good job.


Yeah, that's it.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Hi Johnv!

Good to see you back and posting!

How's married life!

 

[Johnv]

Treating me well, thank you. I just got back from my second honeymoon in Hawaii (is it a second if you've been married only 6 months?), and recently bought a new house. Thus, my prolonged absence

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
"So, outside of self-defense, is it okay biblically speaking to invade another country, for example? Is being able to give our reasons for it good enough? "

Happened all the time in the bible.

How do you think the Jews came in possession of the promised land to begin with?

Yes, but just because something happened in the Bible does not mean it's okay. For one thing, the Jews got the promised land because God directed them in a very direct way, through prophets and other means, to invade the pagan lands. That was partly God's judgment on the pagan lands who had turned away from God. This invasion was not the Jews' idea.

I do not see God doing this today -- he does not give us direct instructions on any war. He only did for the Israelites and some others in the OT.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Don't you think that President Bush prayed a whole lot and asked for guidance from God before he launched this war?

You don't see God speaking to people today? Not out loud, but certainly in their hearts...

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
You don't see God speaking to people today? Not out loud, but certainly in their hearts...

I hope I'm not being presumptuous here, but God speaks to me all the time. Sometimes it's a still small voice, sometimes it's a loud blunt bang on the head. Sometimes it's through someone else speaking to me, and sometimes it's through a thought that enteres my mind.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

You and I agree, John. As usual, you have said it better than I.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Don't you think that President Bush prayed a whole lot and asked for guidance from God before he launched this war?

You don't see God speaking to people today? Not out loud, but certainly in their hearts...

Pres. Bush may have prayed, but I don't necessarily think God directly told him to launch the war. The US is not OT Israel.

Do you really believe God told Pres. Bush to get involved in Iraq? Are we supposed to assume that?
Bush is not an OT prophet through whom God is speaking.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I don't know WHAT God told President Bush, if anything, but I'm sure he prayed about it.

God still speaks to us today. The problem is, too many of us aren't listening.

We are His children, so of course He would speak to us. That didn't stop with the advent of the NT.

 

[just-want-peace]

The problem is, too many of us aren't listening.

True!!

However, how many times have you had to make a decision, prayed & prayed over it, & never had a firm & clear direction?

I've done this many times, & then just followed my best judgement only to find that God was leading me all the time; just was unaware of the input at the time.

I can truthfully say that I only felt the "leading" consciously once in my life.

That was when I was choosing between two offers of employment and the most logical (in virtually all respects) was option "A". Once I had to make the choice, I had absolutely NO doubts that option "B" was the one I should take.

Option "A" offered a salary of 52% greater than "B", so "A" would have been the logical choice.

Of course there were other considerations, but had I not spent some time asking God's direction, I'm sure that I would have opted for "A".

Via hindsight, I can see the wisdom of "B", that was not evident at the outset!

So God will lead, if we just trust Him!!!

 

[Marcia]

I do not believe that God is leading us into the Iraq war. There is no evidence for this. This does not mean that God is not allowing it, but just because God speaks to people today does not mean he speaks to nations the way he led OT Israel. I do not believe that.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

God CAN speak to nations if he wants to, but even if He doesn't, that doesn't mean He does not speak to the leaders of a nation.

I still believe that He speaks to people today, in different ways. We just need to listen and recognize the voice of God...

 

[just-want-peace]

I do not believe that God is leading us into the Iraq war. There is no evidence for this.

Your point is immaterial.

What would you consider "EVIDENCE"?

The only "evidence" that exists that God led ISRAEL into wars, is His Word; absent that, there is no historical evidence that proves (evidence?) God was even involved.

If you believe that God DID NOT lead us to Iraq, fine, I'll accept that; but to require "evidence" is a bit much, don't you think?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by just-want-peace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I do not believe that God is leading us into the Iraq war. There is no evidence for this.

Your point is immaterial.

What would you consider "EVIDENCE"?

The only "evidence" that exists that God led ISRAEL into wars, is His Word; absent that, there is no historical evidence that proves (evidence?) God was even involved.

If you believe that God DID NOT lead us to Iraq, fine, I'll accept that; but to require "evidence" is a bit much, don't you think? </font>[/QUOTE]I think people are missing the point. I did not say God does not speak to individuals today -- of course he does. But this does not mean he is speaking to countries as a whole the way he spoke to Israel's leaders through is prophets.

I think the Bible as evidence that God spoke to Israel is plenty of evidence. My point in saying there is no evidence that God is telling Bush what to do re Iraq is that the analogy between Israel and the U.S. is a faulty one.

Comments earlier from others to justify the Iraq war were that in the OT God had people invade countries. I was trying to make the point that that that is a whole other ball of wax. There is no way to equate OT Israel and God leading them to the promised land with the U.S.

The promised land was a physical place and God was forming and leading the nation of Israel. How this can compare with the U.S. is beyond me. Our promised land now is heaven.

So to say that the Iraq war is okay because God had Israel invade pagan lands is a faulty analogy. The two cannot be equated.

 

[I hate sin]

I Am Blessed 16

Don't you think that President Bush prayed a whole lot and asked for guidance from God before he launched this war?

You don't see God speaking to people today? Not out loud, but certainly in their hearts...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that God can speak in our hearts. But it must be in line with the Word of God;

(PS. Something to think about; Eve was deceived whilst being without sin, how much more us now we are in these bodies of sin?)

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TexasSky

"So, outside of self-defense, is it okay biblically speaking to invade another country, for example? Is being able to give our reasons for it good enough? "

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In the New Testament, we read of the God of the Old Testament commanding;

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

God commands us (1 Cor 14:37) through the apostle Paul;

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

God's word is sure (Matt 5:43,44). Killing people in war or otherwise is not the way of our Lord. Let us please Him who hath chosen us to be a soldier.