"Christian's Don't Sin" part 2

[DHK]

HP: Then tell us Ann how God sees that which He ‘PROMISED’ to not only forget, never to be remembered of us again, but to cast them as far from us as the East is from the West?? Tell us how God can chastise or in any way punish us for sins that He promised in His Word never to be remembered again? Is God reneging on His Word? In DHK’s so often used vernacular, are you calling God a liar?

Why ask Amy something you refuse to accept or understand. You refuse her teaching before the explanation comes.
The problem is not in her explanation. The problem is in your unbelief in eternal security or OSAS. As long as you reject that doctrine you will never accept what we are trying to teach here. Thus your part in this discussion is fruitless. It is based on a belief in eternal security. Accept eternal security first, and then take part in this discussion. Otherwise participation in it is of little value.

 

[Brother Bob]

I recant calling Bob a heretic and say he holds to a false doctrine. For the record I would probably have to include everybody on the BB on this list.

 

[DHK]

I have answered you over and over with scripture. It is either above your head, or you refuse to accept the scriptural answer.
I told you that what God did served the purpose God did it for. It certainly was not done for "salvation", if that is what you are inferring. You just throw a scripture out there without any explanation of what you think it means. That makes it hard to give you an answer, for I know not what you are looking for.

When God slew the animals for Adam and Eve, it was to clothe them. It did not pay the price of their sin.

The term "false doctrine" is much better, but for you to call my answer "false doctrine" is without merit.

BBob,

Bob, they didn't need to be clothed. Think about it.
First they were naked. The only reason they clothed themselves was because of their shame. Climate had nothing to do with it.
Second when they did sin, they clothed themselves with fig leaves. There are people in some tribes that live in tropical areas that clothe themselves to this day using leaves and other such materials. The fig leaves weren't the problem. They lived in a tropical paradise created by God. There were no harsh winters. Climate wasn't a factor. They had already clothed themselves.
God didn't make coats of skins for anyone else.

Why Adam and Eve? Why did they need "coats of skins"? There was only one way to obtain them. This wasn't for clothing, except it were for the clothing of their sin. Blood needed to be shed.

"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin."
And so it was with Adam and Eve as well.

Cain and Abel brought sacrifices before the Lord.
Why was Cain's rejected and Abel's accepted?
What was the basic reason?
What was the nature of Abel's sacrifice?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, they didn't need to be clothed. Think about it.
First they were naked. The only reason they clothed themselves was because of their shame. Climate had nothing to do with it.
Second when they did sin, they clothed themselves with fig leaves. There are people in some tribes that live in tropical areas that clothe themselves to this day using leaves and other such materials. The fig leaves weren't the problem. They lived in a tropical paradise created by God. There were no harsh winters. Climate wasn't a factor. They had already clothed themselves.
God didn't make coats of skins for anyone else.

Why Adam and Eve? Why did they need "coats of skins"? There was only one way to obtain them. This wasn't for clothing, except it were for the clothing of their sin. Blood needed to be shed.

"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin."
And so it was with Adam and Eve as well.

Cain and Abel brought sacrifices before the Lord.
Why was Cain's rejected and Abel's accepted?
What was the basic reason?
What was the nature of Abel's sacrifice?

They were clothed with sin. The shedding of blood was the first animal sacrifice, which did not take away sin, but was a shadow of things to come. Ultimately, it was the blood that cleansed us from sin, not animals.

Hebrew 10:



1: For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2: For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3: But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4: For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I live and die by the word of God.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

They were clothed with sin. The shedding of blood was the first animal sacrifice, which did not take away sin, but was a shadow of things to come. Ultimately, it was the blood that cleansed us from sin, not animals.

BBob,

That is what we have been saying all along Bob. Now you are changing your tune and starting to agree with us. Note your previous post in #65:

You are talking about the OT Israelites who God let wander in the wilderness, until they all died, except two.

The blood did not save them, following the command of God saved them. It was the blood of an animal. Animal's blood don't save no one.

Today you finally admit that the blood does save.
A few days ago you said that the blood did not save.
It saves; it cleanses us from all sin--in both the OT and in the NT.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
Shedding of blood has always been required.

When one comes to Christ his sins are forgiven: past, present and future, because Christ's blood has been shed, and his blood is sufficient to cover all our sins, both big and little, no matter what they are, or when they have been committed.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is what we have been saying all along Bob. Now you are changing your tune and starting to agree with us. Note your previous post in #65:

Today you finally admit that the blood does save.
A few days ago you said that the blood did not save.
It saves; it cleanses us from all sin--in both the OT and in the NT.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
Shedding of blood has always been required.

When one comes to Christ his sins are forgiven: past, present and future, because Christ's blood has been shed, and his blood is sufficient to cover all our sins, both big and little, no matter what they are, or when they have been committed.

For you to say, I have not stated that we are saved by the blood of Christ, is ridiculous and just plain ignornant.

Yes, His blood covers all of our sins, but the fact remains that the saved do not commit the grievous sins you say they do, therefore the blood of Christ is not needed to cover that sin, when it does not exist.

You take the scripture that the Blood of Christ covers all our sins, and apply it to all the sins that "so called christians" commit, such as adultery, incest, pedophiler, rapist of little girls or big ones, or even of other men. You make a mockery of the blood of Christ, to say such things.

No, I am not switching to your belief, I find it disgusting to say that Christs blood will cover your future sins, even if you die in the act of rape. I find it to be false doctrine, that will send men and women to hell, and is being taught all over the States. It is "new" compared to the original doctrine of "if you die in your sins, where I am, you cannot come", or "go and sin no more".

Now, this new passage that God does not see you sinning, but sees the righteous of Christ. Ignorant is the name for that!!

You are messed up, because the scripture says His blood cleanses us from all our sins. God expects you to go and sin no more. If you plan on keep committing adultery, you don't get any of the blood, God will not give it to you. You will die and go to Hell.

Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made white as snow. They would of had to of already been committed. If you for one minute think you can have all your sins washed away, but keep on raping, killing, etc. "forget it" "it aint' gonna happen". You will still be just as bad of a sinner as you ever were and will pay for them in the judgement.

It does not say, "though your sins ARE GOING TO BE as scarlet. It says though your "sins BE as scarlet".

You don't seem to realize that you keep saying your sins will never be remembered against you, then you say that you can die an early death because of your sins. That is speaking BOTH ways and does not make any sense.

BBob,
.

 

[annsni]

HP: Then tell us Ann how God sees that which He ‘PROMISED’ to not only forget, never to be remembered of us again, but to cast them as far from us as the East is from the West?? Tell us how God can chastise or in any way punish us for sins that He promised in His Word never to be remembered again? Is God reneging on His Word? In DHK’s so often used vernacular, are you calling God a liar?

I am not. God chastens those He loves. That is Biblical.

Hebrews 12:

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Accept eternal security first, and then take part in this discussion. Otherwise participation in it is of little value.

HP: Let me interpret DHK’s remark for the listener. What he is saying in essence is, forget using logic or reason, just blindly accept my presupposition, and that which 'I call truth' will majically appear to hold water.

Sorry DHK. Truth will never be established by the formulation of ones conclusions based upon otherwise unfounded presuppositions, regardless of how they might tickle the ears of multitudes of listeners.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: I am not. God chastens those He loves. That is Biblical.

HP: Then tells us what God means when He states that He not only forgives but will forget them, NEVER to be remembered again.

 

[DHK]

HP: Let me interpret DHK’s remark for the listener. What he is saying in essence is, forget using logic or reason, just blindly accept my presupposition and that which 'I call truth' will majically appear to hold water.

Sorry DHK. Truth will never be established by the formulation of ones conclusions based upon otherwise unfounded presuppositions, regardless of how they might tickle the ears of multitudes of listeners.

Here is truth:

Jesus said:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who believe on Christ, He gives unto them eternal life, no questions asked.

It is a free gift, never to be taken back again.

Now tell me: at what point in life does eternal life become temporary life?
At what point does Christ stop telling the truth and start lying?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Now tell me: at what point in life does eternal life become temporary life?
At what point does Christ stop telling the truth and start lying?

HP: I will answer your question when you answer the one I just asked Ann. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: I will answer your question when you answer the one I just asked Ann. :thumbs:

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
--"All things" means all iniquities, all transgressions, all sins: past, present and future--all of them, none excepted. We are forgiven, justified, and our sins are remembered no more. That is Biblical teaching to be accepted by faith. When I forgive my child of a wrong he has committed, it is forgiven. I don't keep on bringing it up in his face every day. Forgiven means forgiven. It is buried; forgotten about; put away in the past. We move on.
And so it is with God, and He is much more faithful than a parent, and so much more perfect. We can count on His promises--all the time.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[Brother Bob]

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
--"All things" means all iniquities, all transgressions, all sins: past, present and future--all of them, none excepted. We are forgiven, justified, and our sins are remembered no more. That is Biblical teaching to be accepted by faith. When I forgive my child of a wrong he has committed, it is forgiven. I don't keep on bringing it up in his face every day. Forgiven means forgiven. It is buried; forgotten about; put away in the past. We move on.
And so it is with God, and He is much more faithful than a parent, and so much more perfect. We can count on His promises--all the time.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

DHK; you will be torn from limb to limb, using OT scriptures trying to defend OSAS. Why do you think Jesus came to start with, if the Old had been good enough. Man, you are losing this argument before you even start, using OT scripture.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, you never answered the question in the least. Posting Scripture proves nothing 'necessarily' in a debate. It is what one believes about those Scriptures that matter.

Try again to answer the question forthright. We all know what Scripture says. Tell us why you obviously do not believe it to be true.

 

[DHK]

DHK; you will be torn from limb to limb, using OT scriptures trying to defend OSAS. Why do you think Jesus came to start with, if the Old had been good enough. Man, you are losing this argument before you even start, using OT scripture.

BBob,

The entire Bible is inspired of God.
That being said, not all of my Scriptures are from the OT. My main argument comes from the NT, and that in both of my previous posts, both of them unanswered.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Those who believe on Christ, He gives unto them eternal life, no questions asked.

It is a free gift, never to be taken back again.

Now tell me: at what point in life does eternal life become temporary life?
At what point does Christ stop telling the truth and start lying?

HP: You forget a little two letter word that God uses often, i.e., the word ‘if.’ The following passage was written for our admonition and serves as a clear warning as to the fate of any that start out following the Lord, entertaining a hope of eternal life, but turn their backs on God and obedience and return to their sins.
1Ki 9:3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:
5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them;(REMEMBER THAT GOD”S PROMISE WAS A PROMISE MADE FOREVER, verse 3) and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

God’s promises to us concerning salvation are conditioned upon our continued obedience. Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, ‘IF’ thou ‘CONTINUE’ in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.(EM)

 

[DHK]

DHK, you never answered the question in the least. Posting Scripture proves nothing 'necessarily' in a debate. It is what one believes about those Scriptures that matter.

Try again to answer the question forthright. We all know what Scripture says. Tell us why you obviously do not believe it to be true.

I find it odd that you want me to answer another person's post, but you are reluctant to answer my questions (post) directed to you.
Have you got a problem here?

 

[DHK]

HP: You forget a little two letter word that God uses often, i.e., the word ‘if.’

There was no if, in the passage I quoted to you (John 5:24).
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There is no "if."
It is unconditional. It is not conditioned on works or continued obedience.
If it were then Christ would be a liar, and eternal life would only be temporary.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If it were then Christ would be a liar, and eternal life would only be temporary.

HP: We will both have an opportunity to plead our case before God and give an account for how we have handled His Word. May God grant to us mercy.

Now answer the question directly that I asked of you.

 

[DHK]

What question? Are you referring to the question that you "directly" asked of Ann?
This one:

HP: Then tells us what God means when He states that He not only forgives but will forget them, NEVER to be remembered again.

I already explained this to you once, using the example of a parent/child.

As a father forgives a child for a wrong, and does not keep on bringing it up day after day, but puts it in the past, and moves on; so our Heavenly Father forgives all of our sins. He puts them in them in the past never to be remembered again.http://www.baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1282230

There is nothing that a child can do to, to be disowned by a father. His genes will always be the genes of his father. That fact will always be the same. He will always be his son. He will never be disinherited.

So it is with God. Once born again, it is impossible to be "unborn." Once in the family it is impossible to be out of the family. God's promises are more sure and permanent than that of a physical father.

When a child does wrong he is disciplined by his father; not kicked out of the family.
When a child of God does wrong he is chastened or disciplined by His Heavenly Father, not kicked out of the family, losing His salvation. To lose one's salvation is impossible. Eternal life cannot turn into temporary life. It is logically impossible. And if it could, it would make Christ a liar.