"Christian's Don't Sin" part 2

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: When a child of God does wrong he is chastened or disciplined by His Heavenly Father

HP: You are sidestepping the issue, refusing to give a straight answer. Why?? I want you to answer one question. God promises to forget sins that are forgiven, and never to bring them up again. If God disciplines us for sins that He has promised in Word NEVER TO BE REMEMBERED AGAIN, is God a liar? If not why not? Your answer that stated, “DHK: As a father forgives a child for a wrong, and does not keep on bringing it up day after day, but puts it in the past, and moves on;” does not hold muster, for God would have to go against His Word and remember that which He said, (Not I but God said) He would not remember, let alone chastise us for something He promised He would not even remember.

 

[annsni]

HP: Then tells us what God means when He states that He not only forgives but will forget them, NEVER to be remembered again.

God is not like a human with human emotions and a human mind. We humans will bring things up over and over again. However, God sees our sins, chastens us (it says so in Hebrews) and yet He forgives us of our sins. God does not bring it up over and over again. Those sins are forgiven. But thanks to us humans, we continue to sin until the day we die and God will continue to chasten us and will continue to forgive us of all that we do. He HAS forgiven us of all we do and WILL forgive us of all we do. But God says that He chastens us.

See one of the issues here is the idea that we can do something to make God change His mind, take out an eraser and somehow blot our name from His hand. I do not see that supported in Scripture. What I DO see is that those who are His cannot be taken away by anyone. Not by us, not by Satan, not by other people. Yes, we will continue to sin. Sanctification is a process and there may be leaps and bounds and there may be small changes. My own mother prayed right after she was saved that God would take away all desire for smoking - and He did that. However I know of others who are truly saved who have asked for the same thing and yet they continue to struggle daily with their desires. In the same way, someone who is a pedophile (I'm going to use this term for someone who is drawn to children s3xually) and comes to the Lord will be indwelt with the Spirit but the desire that they have for children may not be taken away immediately. It might be something that they're going to struggle with for their whole lives, for part of their lives or maybe just for the next few hours. We don't know. We are human - we are sinful in our flesh. Even a pedophile's DESIRES are enough to constitute sin (if a man looks at a woman and lusts then it is as if he committed adultery with her), yet God will forgive him and has already paid for that sin. He might still experience a chastening from the Lord, but that sin is still covered by the blood of the Lamb. The Spirit will convict them and, hopefully, they will follow the Spirit's prompting and begin to turn more and more from that sin. But if they "fall", does God take back His blood? Does He revoke His promise that we pass from death to life? Do we pass back to death again?

John 10:27-29 says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

Does God lie? Jesus Himself said that those who are His sheep will NEVER perish. They have eternal life.

But we CERTAINLY must match this with what Romans 6 says - that we are no longer a slave to sin. Yes, a believer can potentially do some grievous sins. But we will have conviction that others do not, we will have the chastening of the Lord and we will not be able to CONTINUE in that sin without serious consequences in this world.

Paul wouldn't have had to write this in chapter 6 if we would never sin again:

" 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

Neither DHK or I are saying "Hey, we can get "saved" then go ahead and murder, rape and steal. It's OK. God forgives you!" What we're saying is that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation and those who are TRULY saved will not WANT to continue in sin. The Holy Spirit teaches, convicts and guides each believer away from sin but we also still are human with the consequences and desire of sin.

Paul later in chapter 7 says "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

That's pretty telling. I'm pretty sure Paul was saved - Scripture says so. But he still did things he didn't want to do. What he did, I don't know. But I do know that he's in heaven right now.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: As a father forgives a child for a wrong, and does not keep on bringing it up day after day, but puts it in the past, and moves on; so our Heavenly Father forgives all of our sins. He puts them in them in the past never to be remembered again.

HP: This answer totally lacks reason. What father would make a PROMISE never to remember something, and then turn right around and discipline one for it? If the father put something in the past, never to be remembered, does not reason and common sense tell us that the same could not be said if the father then disciplined the child for the very thing he said he would not remember?

Do you just suppose that the child, under such discipline, would have every right to turn to the father and ask why the father reneged on his promise to forget?? I certainly would believe the child would be totally and completely justified in asking the father that question, don’t you? If not why not?

 

[DHK]

HP: You are sidestepping the issue, refusing to give a straight answer. Why?? I want you to answer one question. God promises to forget sins that are forgiven, and never to bring them up again. If God disciplines us for sins that He has promised in Word NEVER TO BE REMEMBERED AGAIN, is God a liar? If not why not? Your answer that stated, “DHK: As a father forgives a child for a wrong, and does not keep on bringing it up day after day, but puts it in the past, and moves on;” does not hold muster, for God would have to go against His Word and remember that which He said, (Not I but God said) He would not remember, let alone chastise us for something He promised He would not even remember.

Are you yet without understanding? I posted in detail an explanation answering your question, and then you say I didn't answer it, or sidestepped the question. I did not. I have answered your question. Read it again, this time more carefully.

Try to understand this, if you can:
God, at the time of salvation forgives all of our sin: past, present, and future, in a judicial sense. They will never be remembered again, as far as our salvation is concerned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Never will God remember or bring up those sins that relate to salvation, which means all of them. They are all under the blood, even the future sins.

However, those same future sins may hinder my fellowship with my Lord. Only in the sense of my fellowship with God will he show me that I need to confess them to have forgiveness that a right relationship may be restored.
I will never lose my salvation. God has put away my sins and has given my eternal life which I can never lose.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Neither DHK or I are saying "Hey, we can get "saved" then go ahead and murder, rape and steal. It's OK. God forgives you!" What we're saying is that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation and those who are TRULY saved will not WANT to continue in sin.

HP: You do not have to say it. Pure God-given logic mandates to the mind that your remarks are clearly incoherent and are at antipodes with each other. You are saying loud and clear to the listener, regardless of what you do God will not judge you for it. Remember, when you erase the penalty you are effectively erasing the commandment. Law without penalty is nothing more than good advice or council, but is no 'law' at all.

Do not simply set forth your philosophy on God,His laws, and the penalty your philosophy declares is for believers, but rather show us from Scripture, the plain Word of God, that the penalty for sin in anyone’s life is the loss of rewards or chastisement.

 

[annsni]

HP: This answer totally lacks reason. What father would make a PROMISE never to remember something, and then turn right around and discipline one for it? If the father put something in the past, never to be remembered, does not reason and common sense tell us that the same could not be said if the father then disciplined the child for the very thing he said he would not remember?

Do you just suppose that the child, under such discipline, would have every right to turn to the father and ask why the father reneged on his promise to forget?? I certainly would believe the child would be totally and completely justified in asking the father that question, don’t you? If not why not?

God says that He chastens us. Is He lying?

Hebrews 12:6-8 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

 

[Brother Bob]

I am amazed of someone saying that "all" your sins are paid for and never to be remembered against you, then go on to say, YES we do sin, and God chastises us for it. In other words, God remembered that which He said He would not. These people do not realize they are saying God told "false". God forbid, this is where the scripture has meaning, "let God be truth and every man a liar". Also, the pick and choose of the OT scriptures. What about the following?

Eze 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This is just one scripture, there are many many many. I doubt if anyone on here would allow their husbands to have "cocubines", or have their neighbor killed so they could have his wife.[/i]

I think God for the coming of the Lord. Use OT scripture all you want, but you did not even have a chance at salvation back then.

I can't get over people saying, YES God sees us sin and punishes us for it, but we do not lose our salvation, but His Son also died for all of them same sins and cast them into a sea of forgetfullness. Oh yea, but He also remembers them. He can't see them, He only sees the righteous of Christ, but He punishes us anyway. Weird man, Wierd

I could just see myself in the stand, giving a message that Jesus's blood covered all your sins and He said He will never remember them against you anymore, past, present and future. Oh yea though, if you do sin, God will punish you for it, even though He can't even see you sinning. Somehow, He sees the sin, but don't see you doing it. All He sees is the righteousness of Christ. Yep, that would be a message where the men in little white jackets came in and led me away.

BTW; In early times in this country, when Children would not obey their parents they were put away in reform homes. I also, have known many who have been "disinherited".

Same as the lost, you are God's creation, but if you do not repent and follow the Lord, He will send you to hell.

BBob

 

[DHK]

I am amazed of someone saying that "all" your sins are paid for and never to be remembered against you, then go on to say, YES we do sin, and God chastises us for it. In other words, God remembered that which He said He would not.
BBob

I would conclude then, that:
1. You do not believe in the atonement.
2. You do not believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient enough to cover all our sins.
3. You do not believe in eternal security.

At least that is what your post implies.

 

[annsni]

I am amazed of someone saying that "all" your sins are paid for and never to be remembered against you, then go on to say, YES we do sin, and God chastises us for it. In other words, God remembered that which He said He would not. These people do not realize they are saying God told "false". God forbid, this is where the scripture has meaning, "let God be truth and every man a liar". Also, the pick and choose of the OT scriptures. What about the following?

Eze 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This is just one scripture, there are many many many. I doubt if anyone on here would allow their husbands to have "cocubines", or have their neighbor killed so they could have his wife.[/i]

I think God for the coming of the Lord. Use OT scripture all you want, but you did not even have a chance at salvation back then.

I can't get over people saying, YES God sees us sin and punishes us for it, but we do not lose our salvation, but His Son also died for all of them same sins and cast them into a sea of forgetfullness. Oh yea, but He also remembers them. He can't see them, He only sees the righteous of Christ, but He punishes us anyway. Weird man, Wierd

I could just see myself in the stand, giving a message that Jesus's blood covered all your sins and He said He will never remember them against you anymore, past, present and future. Oh yea though, if you do sin, God will punish you for it, even though He can't even see you sinning. Somehow, He sees the sin, but don't see you doing it. All He sees is the righteousness of Christ. Yep, that would be a message where the men in little white jackets came in and led me away.

BTW; In early times in this country, when Children would not obey their parents they were put away in reform homes. I also, have known many who have been "disinherited".

Same as the lost, you are God's creation, but if you do not repent and follow the Lord, He will send you to hell.

BBob

Can I ask how do you deal with Hebrews 12?

And John 10:27-29?

You seem to be ignoring them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Try to understand this, if you can:
God, at the time of salvation forgives all of our sin: past, present, and future, in a judicial sense. They will never be remembered again, as far as our salvation is concerned.

HP: Philosophy is one thing, Scripture entirely another. Where does Scripture state that all past present and future sins are forgiven, or the part about “as far as our salvation is concerned?”

DHK: There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

HP: I believe you carelessly handle the Word of God by your intentional failure to leave out the last half of that verse that God wrote to us, which modifies the first part in a clear and precise way; “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.”

DHK: Never will God remember or bring up those sins that relate to salvation, which means all of them. They are all under the blood, even the future sins.

HP: There is not one verse in the Word of God that states or implies any such thing. You only get there by holding to the unfounded presupposition of OSAS.

DHK: However, those same future sins may hinder my fellowship with my Lord. Only in the sense of my fellowship with God will he show me that I need to confess them to have forgiveness that a right relationship may be restored.

HP: Without a right relationship with God, no man shall see Him. “Without holiness, no man shall see God.”

DHK: I will never lose my salvation.

HP: There is no reason why you would have to, but according to the Word of God any man can be cut off, just as others have been, for disobedience and failure to obey God’s Word.

DHK: God has put away my sins and has given my eternal life which I can never lose.

HP: If you bet your eternal life on the belief alone, you will in the end find that faith without works is dead being alone, and death faith will save no one.

Now back to my question you consistently avoid, in spite of your insistence to the contrary, how can anyone be said to be consistent if they promise one thing yet in reality deliver another?

 

[Brother Bob]

I would conclude then, that:
1. You do not believe in the atonement.
2. You do not believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient enough to cover all our sins.
3. You do not believe in eternal security.

At least that is what your post implies.

There was no eternal security under OT. That is why Jesus Come.

I believe all your sins are covered, but if you are going to continue to be a pedophiler or rapist, I don't believe any of them are covered.

I told you not to use OT scripture to try and teach OSAS. It was not there. Adam was saved, then He lost it.

Oh, ye backsliding Israel, return unto me. I will not let you cross over into the promised land, because you have worshipped molten calves as your God.

Jdg 10:10 ¶ And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, saying, We have sinned against thee, both because we have forsaken our God, and also served Baalim.

Jdg 10:13 Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.


BBob,

 

[DHK]

There was no eternal security under OT. That is why Jesus Come.

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake.
He was eternally secure in the hand of God.
So was David. And according to the NT, so was Lot in spite of his wickedness. Eternal security is quite evidently taught in the OT.

I believe all your sins are covered, but if you are going to continue to be a pedophiler or rapist, I don't believe any of them are covered.

What about your own salvation then?
According to the testimony of many here you have lied, and treated many unkindly.
According to James 2:10 your sins are on par with that of a rapist, adulterer, or a murderer. For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all. You are just as guilty as if you have broken all the law.
The consequences of your sin may not be as great as others, but your sin is just as great in God's eyes. You have transgressed his commandments. It is unfortunate that you cannot see this very vital truth. You are not deity that can divide sins up.

Your answer again:
"I believe all your sins are covered but...."
The "but" indicates that you don't believe all sins are covered by the blood. They either are or they aren't. There are no "buts."

I told you not to use OT scripture to try and teach OSAS. It was not there. Adam was saved, then He lost it.

There is no evidence that Adam will be in Hell; no evidence that Adam ever lost his salvation. Genesis 3:21 was a sacrifice that God provided on his behalf to bring his "child" back into fellowship with Him. He never was cast out of His family.

 

[annsni]

There was no eternal security under OT. That is why Jesus Come.

I believe all your sins are covered, but if you are going to continue to be a pedophiler or rapist, I don't believe any of them are covered.

I agree that a person who is blatantly continuing in sin thinking "I'm saved so it's OK" is not covered - they were NEVER saved. I don't care what they say, what "prayer" they said or where they grew up or walked forward. A heart that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be new. It will be changed. But even a changed heart can slip and fall. It doesn't mean that they will lose their salvation.

One issue that we both disagree is on is the "losing your salvation". I do not agree that you can lose it. I have found way too many Scriptures promising me eternal life. Eternal life is eternal. My sins have been paid for and God doesn't take the bill and give it back to me. I am a new creation - never to be made old again.

I have to say, living a life where I'd have to question if my quick bad thought that I had a little while ago was enough to toss me out of heaven, is a pretty sad thought. I'd hate to be "looking over my shoulder" so to speak wondering if I'm OK or not. It reminds me of my Roman Catholic upbringing where I'd be scared to death that I'd have done something naughty and that I'd die before I could get to confession and communion where I can now "get right with God" again. It's a sad life, IMO.

 

[Brother Bob]

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake.
He was eternally secure in the hand of God.
So was David. And according to the NT, so was Lot in spite of his wickedness. Eternal security is quite evidently taught in the OT.

What about your own salvation then?
According to the testimony of many here you have lied, and treated many unkindly.
According to James 2:10 your sins are on par with that of a rapist, adulterer, or a murderer. For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all. You are just as guilty as if you have broken all the law.
The consequences of your sin may not be as great as others, but your sin is just as great in God's eyes. You have transgressed his commandments. It is unfortunate that you cannot see this very vital truth. You are not deity that can divide sins up.

Your answer again:
"I believe all your sins are covered but...."
The "but" indicates that you don't believe all sins are covered by the blood. They either are or they aren't. There are no "buts."

There is no evidence that Adam will be in Hell; no evidence that Adam ever lost his salvation. Genesis 3:21 was a sacrifice that God provided on his behalf to bring his "child" back into fellowship with Him. He never was cast out of His family.

What about the Saducees, the Pharasees.
Sure there were some that died saved, probably a great number, but they died in faith believing.

There is no evidence that Adam is saved either.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

What about the Saducees, the Pharasees.
Sure there were some that died saved, probably a great number, but they died in faith believing. BBob,

The Sadducees denied the resurrection, denied immortality, and many of them were part of the Sanhedrin, that body that crucified Christ.
The Pharisees were the ones that stirred up the Jews to crucify Christ. Christ speaks of them quite harshly in Mat.23. In fact Jesus tells them that they believe not. He also tells them that their father is the devil, meaning, that they are all unsaved.

The Sadducees and Pharisees were not saved individuals.
Only a very few were saved that we know of: Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Saul.

 

[Brother Bob]

The Sadducees denied the resurrection, denied immortality, and many of them were part of the Sanhedrin, that body that crucified Christ.
The Pharisees were the ones that stirred up the Jews to crucify Christ. Christ speaks of them quite harshly in Mat.23. In fact Jesus tells them that they believe not. He also tells them that their father is the devil, meaning, that they are all unsaved.

The Sadducees and Pharisees were not saved individuals.
Only a very few were saved that we know of: Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Saul.

They were Jews, and of the household of Israel, is that not right. I know who they were, why you think I mentioned them.


Jer 3:8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Many of Isreal died unsaved and many are still unsaved.

Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

They were Jews, and of the household of Israel, is that not right. I know who they were, why you think I mentioned them.


Jer 3:8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Many of Isreal died unsaved and many are still unsaved.

Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

BBob,

It is simple Bob. Salvation is of Christ.
Believe on him and thou shalt be saved, and your sins forgiven--all of them!
Reject him and thou shalt be condemned--forever.

It is as simple as that.
In the NT, it doesn't matter whether one was a Jew (Pharisee or Saduccee), or Gentile.
Salvation is through Christ and Him alone.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree that a person who is blatantly continuing in sin thinking "I'm saved so it's OK" is not covered - they were NEVER saved. I don't care what they say, what "prayer" they said or where they grew up or walked forward. A heart that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be new. It will be changed. But even a changed heart can slip and fall. It doesn't mean that they will lose their salvation.

One issue that we both disagree is on is the "losing your salvation". I do not agree that you can lose it. I have found way too many Scriptures promising me eternal life. Eternal life is eternal. My sins have been paid for and God doesn't take the bill and give it back to me. I am a new creation - never to be made old again.

I have to say, living a life where I'd have to question if my quick bad thought that I had a little while ago was enough to toss me out of heaven, is a pretty sad thought. I'd hate to be "looking over my shoulder" so to speak wondering if I'm OK or not. It reminds me of my Roman Catholic upbringing where I'd be scared to death that I'd have done something naughty and that I'd die before I could get to confession and communion where I can now "get right with God" again. It's a sad life, IMO.

Apparently you don't know me. I don't believe you can lose it either, but only after Jesus came. I do believe they served God in the flesh under the Law and could "backslide" or fall.

We probably are closer than you think. You just believe there is a time between not sinning and begin to sin again. I believe when you are saved, the grevious sins are gone from you and you are kept by the power of God.

You are not a keeper of the Law, but the Law keeps you. It is in your heart and your mind. Jesus in in you. Your body is a temple of God. The Holy Ghost dwells within you.

Listen Ann; The church I belong to is several thousand stretched from Mich to Fla and they all believe as I do, that God's children are kept by Him, therefore we cannot do those evil sins of rapist, pedophiler etc. We have been in existance for hundreds of years and have always believed that. It is not just something BBob believes. We also live that way and worship together that way. We have had some go astray over the years but not too many, according to our numbers. None of them would accept that Christians can commit rape etc.



BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: My sins have been paid for and God doesn't take the bill and give it back to me. I am a new creation - never to be made old again.

HP: Here we are faced with the beginning of the error I have attempted on many occasions to point out. The atonement made was not a literal ‘individual or sin specific’ payment for specific sins as Ann, DHK, and others allude to. If it was, there are some logical conclusions that must be true that I know DHK for one does not desire to accept.

First, if it was a literal payment for specific individual sins, either all would be saved (for Christ died not only for our sins but for the sins of the entire world) but the sins of the entire world would be paid for, thence universalism would be established. If one denies universalism, then you have the problem of God only paying for the sins of the elect, (an idea viewed as repulsive by everything that I can gather, to DHK) or the atonement made was in essence insufficient to atone for the sins of the entire world as Scripture states it in fact was. I see the error of Ann, DHK, and others primarily in the way they view the atonement, in particular from a literal individual or 'sin specific' payment theory.

The literal ‘individual or sin specific’ payment theory has many problems and is simply not supported by Scripture or reason. If individual sins of specific individuals were literally atoned for, and in and by that atonement sins are cast as far as the East is from the west, never to be remember by God or held against those to whom sin was forgiven before they every were even committed, it would be impossible for faith, forgiveness, or repentance to possibly be conditions of forgiveness, for the forgiveness precedes all three. Logically one would have to admit that NOTHING man can or will do has anything to do with who’s sins are remitted who might, subsequent to this literal payment being made, believe, exercise faith, or repent. Hence the deduction men like Augustine and Calvin were forced to logically conclude; that salvation’s grace was indeed irresistible and that the atonement had to be individual specific in nature, therefore limited atonement is a given. These are two positions some try in vain to avoid when they accept the premise upon which these are of necessity a logical inference IF one accepts the false premise of a literal, individual, or ‘sin specific’ atonement as the literal payment theory clearly suggests.

If the bill for sin is paid and sins forgotten, and the idea of a literal payment is a correct theory, yet one denies universalism or a limited atonement, one cannot say that such reasoning is in any way consistent or in accordance to reason, logic, or the Scriptures. Certainly I can appreciate the attempt, however inconsistent, to distance oneself from the errors of men like Augustine and Calvin on the issue although in the end I see little if any meaningful distinction. How one can accept the premise of these men concerning a literal payment, and then try to distance themselves from the necessitated logical conclusions that are a logical given once the false premise is accepted, is beyond any semblance of reason.

There are clearly other illogical conclusions made by those in the camp of the ‘literal payment theory’ I am discussing that are impossible to address in this post, for it is too long already.

Of a truth, God never remembers sins that He has promise to remove and forget, but that does not preclude the truth that new infractions of the law, along with the penalty thereof, will in the end be indeed remembered and dealt with by God upon all those failing to repent and exercise a change of heart for their sins. It is clearly presuming upon the grace of God to conclude that all future sins have been literally paid for, in the sense that the literal, or ‘individual sin specific’ payment theory clearly implies they have been. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

 

[annsni]

HP - You are correct. I hold to the view of particular redemption - limited atonement. I do believe that the blood of Jesus has covered all of MY sins. That is the only way I can get to heaven. While His blood is available to the whole world, just as the blood of the lamb at Passover was available to everyone (even Pharoah could have put the blood on his doorposts and the angel of death would have passed over his home), not everyone will have it applied to the door of their heart.

This is where we differ and I guess it reflects in a number of our beliefs.