Christians not commanded to refrain from bowing before images?

[BrotherJoseph]

"But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints" (Romans 15:25)
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:" Again the words "to be" were added by the translators of the King James and thus are not in the original.

"Called to be saints", means you must prove yourself in this life, then comes the Judgment and only then, if you are accepted into heaven, are you a 'SAINT ", not until.

Lakeside,

1) Scripture tells us we are as Righteous as Jesus Christ due to him imputed righteousness in the present tense-
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Romans 3:22)

2) Moreover, we are sanctified and perfected due to Christ's atoning work
"For by one offering he hath (past tense) perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

 

[lakeside]

BrotherJoseph, so you do not take authority by men in robes ? You wrote: "No robed elder in Rome can tell me otherwise."

That is the problem with the world today. people dislike "authority". So you think that the Supreme Court Justices are not authoritative because they wear "robes", and you are not living by their decisions, because that is what you are saying. I suppose if your son or daughter was wearing a Judges 'robe' you would be singing a different tune.
Jesus spent His prior ministry years praying in a Temple wear all the Rabbi wore robes, He never complained about it, also not in Bible written , clergy not to wear robes. Jesus was called also Rabbi, and He wore robe-like garb. Only because your so anti- Catholic, makes you think like a secular person.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I take it you have scriptural evidence that, in order to be a saint, a person must:
a. be called to be a Saint
b. prove themselves through works in life
c. die and face the Judgment
d. be accepted into Heaven

Otherwise, you have to say that Paul was writing to dead people. Did Paul write to dead people?

Brother Tony,

Other than preach the word to our misguided brothers such as Lakeside, all we can do is pray for him. I feel sorry for him. My mother, prior to meeting my father was a Roman Catholic nun (Kind of funny, I can pronounce myself a "son of a nun", but I am a Primitive Baptist lol-isn't that an oxymoron). In all seriousness, she left the convent when she met my father at a wedding. She later left the Catholic church do to its many traditions and teaching being in direct conflict with the Bible. (I have a birth certificate from my baptism as a baby from the church that declares, "By this act I have become a child of God"). You want to know how many times my mother read or was instructed to read the Bible when she was a nun? None! At least Lakeside appears to be versed in scripture, hopefully the Holy Spirit will guide him into the truth and away from doctrine of men.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

BrotherJoseph, so you do not take authority by men in robes ? You wrote: "No robed elder in Rome can tell me otherwise.".

Lakeside, I never said the above as you falsely assert! What post was this, give me the post # and if you can't do that an apology instead. I do not attack people in ad hominem means, I only will expose false doctrine they hold to via the scripture if needed.

 

[lakeside]

BrotherJoseph, sorry, PreachTony was complaining about men of authrority wearing "robes".

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.

Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.

 

[PreachTony]

BrotherJoseph, so you do not take authority by men in robes ? You wrote: "No robed elder in Rome can tell me otherwise."

That was me, not BrotherJoseph. I have no problem with men having authority. I believe we are granted a degree of authority in scripture. But that authority is not to determine who is a saint. God knows who His saints are, and He can reveal that to us. When I say "robed elder in Rome" I am referring to the Magisterium, and the College of Cardinals, and the Pope. All these offices with no Biblical foundation. These men are responsible for the greater portion of the heretical teachings the church forces upon its members.

That is the problem with the world today. people dislike "authority". So you think that the Supreme Court Justices are not authoritative because they wear "robes", and you are not living by their decisions, because that is what you are saying. I suppose if your son or daughter was wearing a Judges 'robe' you would be singing a different tune.
Jesus spent His prior ministry years praying in a Temple wear all the Rabbi wore robes, He never complained about it, also not in Bible written , clergy not to wear robes. Jesus was called also Rabbi, and He wore robe-like garb.

You are focusing on the wrong thing, lakeside. The robes are meaningless. When I used the term "robe" I was referring to the self-importance and grandeur that the Catholic hierarchy wraps itself in. That you are focusing on the robes just shows that you are trying to deflect the conversation.

Only because your so anti- Catholic, makes you think like a secular person.

So I'm thinking like a secular person? First, all of us are secular to a degree, as we are in the world. But we can strive to be in the world, but not a part of the world. You are so pro-Catholic that you blindly accept any teaching that comes down from the Magisterium. Do you accept every word that the Pope says?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

BrotherJoseph, so you do not take authority by men in robes ? You wrote: "No robed elder in Rome can tell me otherwise."

. Only because your so anti- Catholic, makes you think like a secular person.

As I stated in my prior post, I never said such a thing! Any reader can go back and read my posts to confirm.

As far as me being "anti- Catholic" as you state above, I have actually told others on this forum in other threads such as DHK, that I believe there are many born again children of God in the Catholic church! The reason I say this is because scripture tells us, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 John 5:1a), and " and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Corinthians 2:3b), and "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9), and "15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Most Catholics believe the truths above, thus they give evidence of God's Spirit living in them. I understand your hostility to me however, as I know most Baptists (not Primitive Baptists) believe many Catholics are dammed to Hell if they remain in the church and hold to Catholic dogma. However, I do feel most people in the Catholic church are ignorant of the word of God and that the church promotes a works based gospel, however Paul did not even cease calling the members of the church of Galatia as believers, but did say they had been removed to another gospel. However they were still considered regenerated.

Now as for the leaders of the Catholic church on the other hand scripture teaches us they will be accountable to God for the false gospel they preach leading God's sheep astray. As Paul declared, "7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:7-9) and also Peter declared, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:1-4)

Notice Peter states "many" will follow their ways. Is not the Catholic church the largest in the world? Their leaders remind me much of the Pharisees in Jesus's day and the Lord will give them no mercy on judgment day if they do not repent before that time!

Lakeside, I would challenge you to compare your church teachings with the Bible and see if they truly are one in the same. God bless you.

 

[PreachTony]

As I stated in my prior post, I never said such a thing! Any reader can go back and read my posts to confirm.

BJ - I think lakeside confused my comment as being from you. He has made acknowledgement of the fact. We should be okay now. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[lakeside]

Brother Joseph, thank you, I will accept your challenge. Maybe we could start by how the Holy Bible [NT ] was compiled from the maze of early writings.

 

[lakeside]

BrotherJoseph, in the first four centuries of the Church many books, such as the seven letters of Ignatius, the Letter of Clement [the fourth pope] to the Corinthians, the Didache, and The Shepherd were revered by many Christians as inspired but were later shown to be non-inspired.

It was not until the Councils of Hippo and Carthage that the Catholic Church defined which books made it into the New Testament and which didn't. Probably the council fathers studied the (complete) Muratorian Fragment and other documents, including, of course, the books in question themselves, but it was not until these councils that the Church officially settled the issue.

The plain fact of the matter is that the canon of the Bible was not settled in the first years of the Church. It was settled only after repeated (and perhaps heated) discussions, and the final listing was determined by Catholic bishops. This is an inescapable fact, no matter how many people wish to escape from it.
What say you?

 

[PreachTony]

Brother Joseph, thank you, I will accept your challenge. Maybe we could start by how the Holy Bible [NT ] was compiled from the maze of early writings.

That's not even remotely what BJ's challenge was. :BangHead:

 

[BrotherJoseph]

BrotherJoseph, sorry, PreachTony was complaining about men of authrority wearing "robes".

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.

Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.

Brother Lakeside, I will be the first to admit that I do not understand fully that passage you cited in Hebrews. As a matter of fact, I emailed some people from my church this morning in regards to their interpretation as it is a hard passage to follow. As coincidence would have it, you are the 2nd person on the forum this afternoon who has brought up that same passage to me on Baptistboard!

One thing I do know, we need to interpret the harder to understand passages in light of the clearer passages in scripture. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that one for whom Christ died and who believes upon him will never ultimately fall away and suffer eternal damnation! The atonement is the only thing eternal salvation hinges on in this life and no man can lose their salvation. Consider the following ton of passages of scripture that are abundantly clear on the issue and draw comfort from them,
"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" (John 6:37a)
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:39)
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:9)
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2(a))
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25)
"28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28)
"35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:35-39)

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)
"28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)


"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:3-5)

Notice we are said to be adopted in that verse, the Father will not "unadopt us".

Romans 8:29 asserts all who are called and justified are also predestined to glorification. It follows that any falling short of glorification must never have been truly called and justified.

Man can be condemned to hell only after a valid charge has been made against him. This cannot be the case for God's children (Rom 8:33) since they are sanctified once for all (Heb 10:10) and are forever perfected (Heb 10:14).

Were eternal life secured by man's power, it would doubtlessly be lost. However, the scriptures teach eternal life is secured by the infinite power of God (Jn 10:27-29, 1Cor 1:8, Philip 1:6, 1Thes 5:23, 1Pet 1:5).

The doctrine of preservation is not intended to teach that saved persons can sin with impunity. The scriptures teach God will bring corrective chastisement against all of His disobedient children (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19). Accordingly, scriptures teach the power of God's Spirit is ever at work within His children bringing forth the fruits of righteousness (Philip 2:13, 1Thes 4:9, 2Thes 3:3).

Let the Bible dictate your beliefs, not tradition and church doctrine of men! God bless you Lakeside! I think I will not be posting for a couple of days.

 

[lakeside]

PreachTony, well, how about you jumping into the "fray',' peaceful of course.

I believe in beginning from the earliest history of our N T Bible, why do you want to avoid early Bible history ?

 

[lakeside]

BrotherJoseph, I am just a neophyte, so I will need to study your post after Church service and dinner. Thank you, back to you later or tomorrow, God Willing/ God Bless.

 

[PreachTony]

PreachTony, well, how about you jumping into the "fray',' peaceful of course.

I believe in beginning from the earliest history of our N T Bible, why do you want to avoid early Bible history ?

The challenge wasn't about Bible history. It was about the teachings of the scripture versus the teachings Roman Catholic Church.

Think about it:

The RCC teaches that infant baptism is a means of salvation.
The Bible reveals that only believers who make confession of Christ can be baptized.

The RCC teaches that grace is provided to us through sacraments.
The Bible teaches that grace comes from God, not through our works, but because of faith.

The RCC has established a hierarchy of offices.
The Bible details two appointed offices: bishop(pastor) and deacon.

The RCC taught that indulgences could be purchased for the remission of temporal sins.
The Bible clearly states that money cannot be used to absolve any sin.

 

[Walter]

The challenge wasn't about Bible history. It was about the teachings of the scripture versus the teachings Roman Catholic Church.

Think about it:

The RCC teaches that infant baptism is a means of salvation.
The Bible reveals that only believers who make confession of Christ can be baptized.

The RCC teaches that grace is provided to us through sacraments.
The Bible teaches that grace comes from God, not through our works, but because of faith.

The RCC has established a hierarchy of offices.
The Bible details two appointed offices: bishop(pastor) and deacon.

The RCC taught that indulgences could be purchased for the remission of temporal sins.
The Bible clearly states that money cannot be used to absolve any sin.[/QUOTE]

For one thing, the Catholic Church never taught that indulgences could be purchased for the remission of sin. Where did you get that idea? You cannot buy indulgences and the Church never at any time in any way shape or form approved selling indulgences. That does not mean evil people even priests claiming to act for the Church did not try to sell them at various times, and yes, when they did, it was the grave sin of simony.

 

[PreachTony]

The RCC taught that indulgences could be purchased for the remission of temporal sins.
The Bible clearly states that money cannot be used to absolve any sin.

For one thing, the Catholic Church never taught that indulgences could be purchased for the remission of sin. Where did you get that idea? You cannot buy indulgences and the Church never at any time in any way shape or form approved selling indulgences. That does not mean evil people even priests claiming to act for the Church did not try to sell them at various times, and yes, when they did, it was the grave sin of simony.

Really. I recall studying in school, both high school and college, how Catholic priests would sell indulgences to penitent worshipers that would lessen the amount of time those worshipers had to spend in purgatory. I will grant that I misspoke in saying "remission of temporal sins." I should've noted that it lessened the punishment, in a sense, for those sins. According to doctrine, only a priest through confession could absolve sins.

Never mind that all of that is anti-Biblical. There is not scriptural support for the Catholic notion of Purgatory. There is no necessity of an earthly priest absolving sins when we can go directly to God.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

For one thing, the Catholic Church never taught that indulgences could be purchased for the remission of sin. Where did you get that idea? You cannot buy indulgences and the Church never at any time in any way shape or form approved selling indulgences. That does not mean evil people even priests claiming to act for the Church did not try to sell them at various times, and yes, when they did, it was the grave sin of simony.

Brother Walter,

You are splitting hairs by saying the church didn't authorize the sales of indulgences. Wikipedia,"In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome...It is commonly believed that the Catholic Church was in the business of selling indulgences for money. What actually happened was that the Church granted indulgences to those who gave alms to a charitable fund or foundation."[56http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence"

Even if one concedes indulgences weren't directly sold, what is the scripture that gives credence to authorizing releases of "so called" indulgences in exchange for money donated to a charitable foundation?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Joseph, thank you, I will accept your challenge. Maybe we could start by how the Holy Bible [NT ] was compiled from the maze of early writings.

Brother Lakeside,

If you do not accept what was accepted as part of the cannon and what was rejected, I am not going to debate this. My authority, as was Christ's when he debated the church establishment in his day, is Holy Scripture.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

BrotherJoseph, I am just a neophyte, so I will need to study your post after Church service and dinner. Thank you, back to you later or tomorrow, God Willing/ God Bless.

Ok, I look forward to your reply, but I doubt I will be on here tomorrow! My wife doesn't like competing against Baptistboard lol!