37818
Well-Known Member
So why name parts of New Jerusalem after the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles, if one or neither are to have not part? The Apostles being part of the church.
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Christians, Put Down Your Guns
- Thread starter AustinC
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I did not say "have no part" unqualifiedly. I said they are not part of the spiritual body of Christ.
The new heavenly Jerusalem (which is not the same as the new earthly Jerusalem) unites heaven and earth, as it were. I'm not sure what the problem is with the name of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles being on there.
Btw, many would challenge the notion that the 12 apostles are part of the church, although I do not, as best I understand now.
37818
Well-Known Member
We are in the Tribulation even as we write. Therefore it applies to us right now.
I believe the OP is an interesting subject. I also believe God brings about many things in different ways. Did God need David to kill the giant? No, yet I believe it was the will of God for David to kill the giant.
Maybe we have to live as we believe we are led even in these times.
Maybe we have to live as we believe we are led even in these times.
Why do you say we are in the tribulation - at this time?
Because the Revelation of Jesus tells us we are in the Tribulation.
*Revelation 12:1-18*
Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant, and she cried out because of her labor pains and the agony of giving birth. Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born. She gave birth to a son who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days. Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, “It has come at last— salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth— the one who accuses them before our God day and night. And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.” When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon for a time, times, and half a time. Then the dragon tried to drown the woman with a flood of water that flowed from his mouth. But the earth helped her by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that gushed out from the mouth of the dragon. And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus. Then the dragon took his stand on the shore beside the sea.
John is showing us that the battle has been going on from Eve to the present. Satan was waiting to destroy the Promised One and since Jesus defeated Him at the cross and is in heaven , in the throne, Satan has turned his anger to trying to destroy the adopted children of God. But God has marked us with a seal so that even if Satan is given authority to kill us, he cannot keep us from forever serving our King. Satan's doom has already been pronounced. But he is still wreaking havoc so that all the tares will be exposed and sifted from the wheat. We are in this great sifting right now.
Second, nowhere in Revelation do you find the rapture of the church before the tribulation. Therefore we are in the great tribulation even as we read these words.
Satan is behind every war that has ever existed, by God's ordination. We see the first four seals fully being presented throughout history. Hitler clearly had the spirit of antichrist, which John told us is always at work in this world.
I think your answer to my question would be "yes" if so - WW II ended 78 years ago. My understand is that the tribulation is only 7 years.........
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jewish church-age believers (the saints) and Gentile church-age believers (the fellow) form one body.
I'm not sure what you're saying.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The Tribulation described in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Revelation is a literal 3.5 year period ( Daniel 9:27, Daniel 12:11 ), of the worst plagues, destruction and death ( because of God's wrath towards sinful mankind ) that the world has seen up until now. It will make the plagues of Egypt seem very small by comparison.
If we were in it, we as believers would know it... because we would be hunted, and anyone who will not take the mark will be sentenced to death.
Have you seen these come to pass, my friend?
" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) " ( Matthew 24:15 ).
" for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." ( Matthew 24:21-22 ).
" Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3 )
I have not.
Again,
I've not seen what is described in Revelation 6 through Revelation 18 happen yet, and since the Gospel is still going forth, the end as not yet come ( Matthew 24:15 ).
How have you come to the conclusion that we are in it right now?
There is no temple to God ( yet ) in Jerusalem, offering sacrifices.
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Interesting suppositions.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
There were, are and will be many anti-Christs... But there will come one who overshadows them all.
As for the subject of the OP, I agree.
Believers should not trust in carnal weapons of war, we should trust in the living God to deliver us from evil, just as He promises to do in the Psalms:
" [The righteous] cry, and the Lord heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
18 The Lord [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
19 Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all." ( Psalms 34:17-19 ).
We do not deliver ourselves out of them by carnal means.
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We disagree on 42 months being literal. Throughout the entire letter, numbers are symbolic. They remind us, like Daniel 11 tells us, that everything is appointed, at the proper time, by God. Thus the time, times and half a time, is not a literal 42, Jewish calendar, months but it is a specific time. We are presently in the time, times, and half a time. I point to Revelation 11 where the woman is protected for that specific period of time and cared for in the wilderness. It is after that time when antichrist (the Beast) and his prophet (the second beast) take over the whole earth and no one can have any legal economic purchase without worshipping the beast. To take this time frame and make it literal would be contrary to the figurative and apocalyptic language John employs throughout the entire letter.
Since no rapture is ever expressed in Revelation, it is false to teach a pre-trib rapture from Revelation and it is a presupposition to force the rapture into Revelation.
As to the OP, I don't think God is opposed to us standing our ground against a physical aggressor. I do think the text tells us we are not to rise up in physical aggression against a government that God has ordained...even when it is an anti-christ government (which all human governments are).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
It happens during the events of Revelation 19:11 thru Revelation 20:6, specifically focusing on Revelation 20:1-6.
The timing is derived from Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, as well as passages in the book of Daniel and other places...like 2 Thessalonians, for example.
Revelation tells believers of literal things that are shortly ( from God's point of view ) going to come to pass ( Revelation 1:1 ).
There are symbolic passages ( such as the seven golden candlesticks being the seven churches in Asia Minor, Revelation 1:20 ) and there are literal passages...such as believers ruling and reigning with Christ for a 1,000 years ( Revelation 20 ).
I see both figurative language and literal when I read it, start to finish.
I agree, as I can find no support for it anywhere in the Scriptures.
But I do indeed find several places with the Lord stating that it comes immediately after the Tribulation.
Again, I see that the timing is found in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
I simply plug the events of Revelation in where they belong in the time line, and it becomes clear to me what I'm looking for... Anti-Christ is next on "the clock", approximately 3.5 years after a 3rd temple is built at Jerusalem as the result of a 7 year covenant of peace with many nations.
That said, I wish you well, sir.
May God bless you in your studies, my friend.
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John wasn't trying to give a timeline. He was looking at various panels in a mosaic and he was revealing the mystery of why Jesus hasn't yet set up his kingdom.
When all the elect come to faith and tares are separated from the wheat, Jesus will return, and "he shall reign forever and ever."
Any attempt to create a timeline is futile since that is not the purpose of Revelation.
The purpose of Revelation is to remind the Church that Jesus has won. Therefore, persevere in all things and be encouraged.
As for the Temple. Jesus is the Temple. We, the elect, are found in Christ. When John (and Ezekiel) measure the Temple, they are measuring the Israel of God who reside in Christ. It's poetic and non-literal language that points us to the New Covenant.
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I must provide for my family. That includes defending them.
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
"He that leadeth into captivity..." obviously does not refer to Christians, because we don't to that. Therefore, it refers to those that are lost during the time of the great tribulation, and the same with "he that killeth with the sword". They are lost people, not Christians. The Christians are the ones being killed and are apparently the souls under the altar in Heaven.
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
"He that leadeth into captivity..." obviously does not refer to Christians, because we don't to that. Therefore, it refers to those that are lost during the time of the great tribulation, and the same with "he that killeth with the sword". They are lost people, not Christians. The Christians are the ones being killed and are apparently the souls under the altar in Heaven.
Nor did I say you must "...kill his attacker..." I said one must defend his family. If a madman (or an evil man) attacked your family member and you defended them with whatever weapon came to your hand, and IF that attacker died as a result, that cannot be helped. That's in God's hands--what's in your hands is you must defend your family from the attacker. You do not, however, have to set out the purposeful intention of making sure the attacker is graveyard dead. It may happen--it may not--defend your family.