Hi DHK,
You wrote, "
Baptism is an ordinance, not a sacrament. It is something done in obedience to Christ's command, and carries symbolic meaning for the believer. "
It's interesting that it took 1500 years for Christians to figure this out. It looks like the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's Church for 15 centuries until John Calvin? (and, by the way, he condoned baptizing infants - not because he believed it imparted grace, but because he understood its covenantal implications as he began to strip baptism of its meaning; the Anabaptists completed his work - thus changing Christian doctrine outside of the Church)
You wrote, "
Baptism doesn't save."
And St. Peter wrote, "Baptism, which corresponds to this,
now saves you". (1 Peter 3:21)
I'll stick to what St. Peter teaches; not your complete contradiction of the Biblical witness.
Hi Brian,
First, let me note that Catholics are not the only ones to baptize infants. The Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed Christians, Methodists, and those who adhere to the Church of the Nazarene accept infant baptism. You may quickly notice that quite a few
Sola Scriptura advocates lie within this category.. that is, individuals who adhere to the Biblical record alone for the definitive rule in matters of Christian faith and morality.
I highly encourage you to read through what the United Methodist Church has to say on the matter:
http://www.gbod.org/worship/articles/water_spirit/life.html#Anchor8
http://www.gbod.org/worship/articles/water_spirit/god_comes.html
You wrote, "
In Acts Peter clearly says to Repent and be Baptized. In that order, Repent must come first according to this direct scripture."
I agree that repentence is a prerequisite for baptism for those than can repent. Since baptism is the instrument by which the new life of grace is given to a person, it contradicts the very nature of baptism to give it to one who does not wish to live this new life of grace whereby their soul is indwelt by the Holy Trinity.
You wrote, "
That is what scripture says directly. Thus we can conclude that Baptism is not for an infant because repentance and belief need to come first."
Thus you can conclude that, but I don't come to that conclusion because I understand that babies are born without the life of God in their souls (this is what Original Sin is) and that
they are
unable to repent.
If these children die before the Age of Reason, before they are
able to commit personal sin (from which they would repent; but since they have nothing to repent of, they need not repent), before they can accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour (they still need a Saviour because they do not have the life of the Holy Spirit in their souls and they are headed for hell), and before they can make the decision to be baptized, they still need to receive the indwelling presence of the Trinity in their souls in order to be saved (by the Saviour) and enjoy heaven.
Jesus Christ, in Luke 18:15 and following, tells us that
infants must not be prevented from coming to him and that
the kingdom of God belongs to them.
In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus that no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.
Now, if the kingdom of God is for infants, and if no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above, then there must be a way for infants to enter the kingdom of God by being born from above.
This is a fact that you can't slide by.
If being born from above means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour through a personal decision (which, by the way, is a prerequisite for baptism for someone who can reason for themselves), then you, Brian, have prevented the possibility of infants from entering the kingdom of God
de facto.
If being born from above means receiving baptism, then infants can indeed be brought to Jesus and may enter the kingdom of God (the Church) through baptism.
I concur with Augustine, who wrote "Who is so impious as to wish to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by forbidding them to be baptized and born again in Christ?" (Augustine, On Original Sin 2, 20).
You wrote, "
Don't you believe what the Bible says Carson?"
Absolutely. Don't you?
"eight persons were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this,
now saves you." (1 Peter 3:20-21)
Paul also does something very peculiar in his Epistle to the Colossians. Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands."
Of course,
usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was
rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised
in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised.
Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" — that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.
Every great Christian saint throughout the first fifteen centuries of the Church stands with me on this issue. You are unable to point out the writing of one single great Christian theologian, scholastic, saint, pope, mystic, doctor, or apologist who argued that baptism is
just a symbol contrary to the universal teaching of the universal Church.
That's a
profound, enduring silence!!
This is such an integral and foundational doctrine to the Christian faith that to repudiate it is of indescribable folly.. especially for one who has been educated so greatly on the matter.
Basil the Great wrote, "This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (
The Holy Spirit 15:35).
John Chrysostom wrote, "[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head" (
The Priesthood 3:5–6).
Cyril of Jerusalem wrote, "Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (
Catechetical Lectures 3:4)
Augustine wrote, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (
Letters 98:2)
John wrote, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit" (
John 3:5)
Paul wrote, "Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word" (
Ephesians 5:26)
Peter wrote "eight persons were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (
1 Peter 3:20-21)
Justin, who died to the lions in the Colisseum for the faith, wrote "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (
First Apology 61).
Brian, I don't for a moment doubt your sincerity as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I have a particular fondness for you on this board because of how your faith shows forth splendidly in your posts. Now, you only need to mend your faith, which is the cause of your salvation with baptism, which is the instrument of your salvation. What good is the homerun hitter without his bat, the instrument of his killer swing?
You have a heart; I can see that, and I embrace what good you have to bring to the board with open reception.
However, I cannot for a moment come to agree with you that baptism is just a symbol and that therefore it isn't necessary for salvation, and I will continue to present the timeless, 2000 year-old teaching of Scripture and the Church irregardless of your sincerity with St. Augustine who wrote concerning infant baptism, "This the Church always had, always held; this she received from the faith of our ancestors; this she perseveringly guards even to the end" (Augustine, Sermon. 11, De Verb Apost). I appreciate sincerity, but I appreciate
the truth more than sincere falsehood.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions. The path to heaven is paved by the Lord Jesus Christ as his teaching and life is fed to us through Holy Mother Church in the Christian liturgy.
Why are you sitting in prison?
May God bless you tonight and always,
Carson
[ December 21, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
