Christmas Mass in Rome

[Kathryn]

Well, unless you do, you will never understand the points I made in my observations of the Roman Catholic Mass, attempting to depict very basic and humble Christian belief. You will not see the contradiction between belief and practice.

You will always see me as an open critic of the Catholic church, and never as one who believes the basic tenets of the Christian faith that you believe. You will always see me as an adversary and not a fellow believer, and that is why there is a Catholic vs Protestant state of existance in the Christian faith.

Yelsew: I can't dismiss the gospel to become the "unbelieving critic". I am a Christian. Christ is within me. As I watch the Christmas Mass video I see the gospel of Christ with the manger and the cross. I have the Bread of Life. I don't need anything else.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew: Why don't you tear apart my view of what I wrote about what I saw watching the video you asked me to watch. That should be easy to do if I don't have the true gospel. Don't you see the manger and the cross?

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

The simple words of the songs written such as Silent Night, Away in a Manger, etc show the two extremes of the Lord’s life…. the manger and the cross. The beginning and the end. The same. He was surrounded by the stable animals in the manger, and between two thieves on the cross. He is the Bread of Life in the food trough, and in the Mass the Bread of Life in the Eucharist. He was laid in swaddling cloths in the manger and swaddling clothes in the tomb. The humility of Jesus Christ coming into the world and laying his head in a cattle feed trough is the same humility of Jesus Christ hanging on the Cross. The manger and the cross are really the same. He was bearing his cross as he entered the world. The manger was the cross accepted by this little baby, true God and true man.


Shepherds and Magi were the only ones that came to worship. The simple and the learned. Poor and rich. The opulence of the magi and the gold, frankincense, and myrrh as precious gifts they offered were accepted by the Christ child, because they worshiped him as the Savior. The fulfillment of His coming is His death on the cross. In the Mass on Christmas day, this same innocent Lamb of God will also be the King of King and the Lord of Lords, as he offers Himself up on the cross as both High priest and victim. The same one and only Sacrifice is made present. The finest vestments signify Him as High priest offering Himself up to God the Father as the slain Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This is the feast of heaven on earth, the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Here it is again what I saw in the video you asked me to rewatch. Why would I give it up just to not be called foolish or to not lose my life early. You have called that foolishness. I have the words of eternal life. I have Jesus Christ Himself the Bread of Life. I have faith, hope, and charity. I'll never exchange what I have for the doctrine of "Faith Alone" from Martin Luther.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew: Why don't you tear apart my view of what I wrote about what I saw watching the video you asked me to watch. That should be easy to do if I don't have the true gospel. Don't you see the manger and the cross?

Yes, Kathryn, I do see them, they are permanently part of me, permanently embedded in my spirit. That is because I believe in Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ. HE IS MY SAVIOR!

But, I also saw in that presentation, the opulence in the church, that did not exist in either scene of His birth or in his death! Recognizing that the Wise men did not come to the stable on the night of Jesus' birth but some period of days, weeks or even months later, it is highly unlikely that there was any Gold, Frankincence, or Myrrh, symbols of opulence, in the birth scene at all, the stable probably did not smell of burning incence but rather...well you know. And likewise there were none of those things near the cross either. Although for the burial, there were aeromatic herbs and spices brought to the tomb, but probably no Gold unless Joseph, the rich man who owned the tomb, was wearing some.

But in the Mass, the Pope was wearing a gold gilded robe, and headgear, had something gold draped around his neck. The other particants were decked out in their finery, and the "guests" too. There were Poinsettias (christmas flowers) everywhere, except in a Bethlehem stable. The emplements were gold, the adornment of the building contained a lot of "golden gilding", there was incence burning, there was no straw (clean or otherwise), no cattle were lowing. The Cross was occupied, there was a male figure still on the cross after 2000 years, ...I think you get the picture. The Jesus that I know, love and worship is not in a manger, nor on a cross. HE LIVES! The HOLY SCRIPTURES declare HE LIVES!
But alas, the Catholic church keeps him on the cross!

I'm sorry you cannot see the hypocracy exhibited. I'm sorry you cannot see, the difference between the truth and the depiction.

At any rate, Blessings to you.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:
Yes, many churches will show only empty crosses, but Scripture teaches the disciples preached "Christ crucified", and shared in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross through the Eucharist well after He rose to heaven. Jesus rebuked them when they had initially forgotten to do so. He opened their eyes. Jesus Christ is , not was, both the slain Lamb of God and the high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. This is why the feast of heaven and earth is made present for all time. It's not just something that happened 2000 years ago. Read Holy Scripture about the Kingdom of heaven and you will find the slain Lamb of God, and the same High priest sitting at the right hand of the Father. This is Jesus Christ. The empty cross is about as symbolic as an empty manger.

God Bless

[ December 31, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:
Yes, many churches will show only empty crosses, but Scripture teaches the disciples preached "Christ crucified", and shared in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross through the Eucharist well after He rose to heaven. Jesus rebuked them when they had initially forgotten to do so. He opened their eyes. Jesus Christ is , not was, both the slain Lamb of God and the high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. This is why the feast of heaven and earth is made present for all time. It's not just something that happened 2000 years ago. Read Holy Scripture about the Kingdom of heaven and you will find the slain Lamb of God, and the same High priest sitting at the right hand of the Father. This is Jesus Christ. The empty cross is about as symbolic as an empty manger.

God Bless

Yes, dear Kathryn, but scriptures also say that this crucifixion was done Once-for-all. It is not an on-going continuous crucifixion. But was completed from start to finish in one 24 hour period of time 2000 years ago. The dead body of Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ was removed from the cross before the annual celebration took place. It would have been bad form to leave it hanging on the cross. That same body was buried in a borrowed tomb where is rested less that 72 hours when it was resurrected to life by the power of God.

That resurrected body does not remain with us for us to dine upon, but is in it's rightful place at the right hand of God the father. That is why we have substitute elements in the form of bread and wine, representing flesh and blood respectively that are reminders of what Jesus did for us.

The effect and affect of that one out of many, crucifixions continues today but not the crucifixion itself, like what is depicted in the Roman Cross.

May you discover the truth in this coming new year.

 

[Kathryn]

double post

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:
Without Easter, Christmas is meaningless. Yet, Paul in Holy Scripture says they preach “Christ crucified”. He doesn’t say they preach “Christ risen”. I guess this is the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Catholics share in this very one and the same sacrifice in the Eucharist. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Cor 10:16

Jesus Christ is the slain Lamb of God and the high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. The empty cross is not even in Holy Scripture, except being carried before the crucifixion. There is no indication from Holy Scripture that the cross ever stood empty after the Crucifixion as a symbol of anything. St. Paul says “we preach Christ crucified”. There is no symbolism of a resurrected Christ in an empty cross. Why not use an empty tomb to symbolize the risen Christ? The empty cross is like an empty manger and is not in Holy Scripture.

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:
Without Easter, Christmas is meaningless. Yet, Paul in Holy Scripture says they preach “Christ crucified”. He doesn’t say they preach “Christ risen”. I guess this is the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Catholics share in this very one and the same sacrifice in the Eucharist. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Cor 10:16

Jesus Christ is the slain Lamb of God and the high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. The empty cross is not even in Holy Scripture, except being carried before the crucifixion. There is no indication from Holy Scripture that the cross ever stood empty after the Crucifixion as a symbol of anything. St. Paul says “we preach Christ crucified”. There is no symbolism of a resurrected Christ in an empty cross. Why not use an empty tomb to symbolize the risen Christ? The empty cross is like an empty manger and is not in Holy Scripture.

God Bless

Well then you worship a DEAD GOD, because it is the Risen Christ that Protestants worship, the one that HOLY SCRIPTURES declare is at the right hand of HIS Father in Heaven.

Protestants also use substitutes; "bread" or wheat wafers, to symbolize the body of Christ; grape juice, or wine to symbolize the Blood of Christ. We consume those after a prayer of consecration by the worship leader. And, yes they do represent the "real body and blood of the Christ" to us. They never become the real body and blood however, except in our intangible spirit where God impresses the 'reality' they represent upon us.

The empty cross of the Protestants is like the bread and wine, a symbol that Jesus is no longer on the cross, it is empty! Some Protestants even use the image of Tomb with the stone that sealed it rolled away, because the tomb in which the Body of Christ was laid, is empty, "He is not here, he is risen"

The empty cross is like an empty manger and is not in Holy Scripture.

I'm sure that your bible contains the following:

[Luke 23:50] Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph, who, though a member of the council,
[Luke 23:51] had not agreed to their plan and action. He came from the Jewish town of Arimathea, and he was waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God.
[Luke 23:52] This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
[Luke 23:53] Then he took it down, wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid it in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever been laid.
[Luke 23:54] It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning.
[Luke 23:55] The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid.
[Luke 23:56] Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

I'm sure your bible contains this scripture because I took it from the NRSV Catholic edition. A cross from which a body is "taken down" is empty.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

[Luke 23:50] Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph, who, though a member of the council,
[Luke 23:51] had not agreed to their plan and action. He came from the Jewish town of Arimathea, and he was waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God.
[Luke 23:52] This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
[Luke 23:53] Then he took it down, wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid it in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever been laid.
[Luke 23:54] It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning.
[Luke 23:55] The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid.
[Luke 23:56] Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Nothing about an empty cross remaining. Jesus carried his own cross, and the same cross would have been taken down to remove his body. There is nothing in the bible about an empty cross. Some could say it means the same as all the other crosses after the executed is taken down. It doesn't show a resurrected Christ. The empty tomb makes much more sense, but as I said earlier, Scripture teaches to preach "Christ crucified". I think the reason for the empty cross is an unwillingness to have a statue of any type, and a denial of the Sacrifice of the Mass, a reaction from the Reformation. The empty cross is like an empty manger however. Without the Resurrection we would have no salvation. It would all have been for nothing, if Jesus did not rise from the dead. Still St. Paul says "preach Christ crucified".

Have a blessed New Year.

 

[Yelsew]

OK, Kathryn, Since you don't want to accept the truth let's look at more of the continually unfolding story as Luke portrays it.(parens and bold are mine)

[Luke 23:50](NRSV-Catholic edition) Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph, who, though a member of the council,
[Luke 23:51] had not agreed to their plan and action. He came from the Jewish town of Arimathea, and he was waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God.
[Luke 23:52] This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
[Luke 23:53] Then he took it (the body of Jesus) down, wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid it in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever been laid.
[Luke 23:54] It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning.
[Luke 23:55] The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. (eye witnesses to the presence of Jesus body in the tomb)
[Luke 23:56] Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
[Luke 24:1] But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared.
[Luke 24:2] They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
[Luke 24:3] but when they went in, they did not find the body.
[Luke 24:4] While they were perplexed about this, suddenly two men in dazzling clothes stood beside them.
[Luke 24:5] The women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen.
[Luke 24:6] Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
[Luke 24:7] that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinners, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again."
[Luke 24:8] Then they remembered his words,
[Luke 24:9] and returning from the tomb, they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.

Just how high do you think the cross was off the ground? It need be no more than a few inches higher than a man is tall. You'll notice the events: body removed from Cross, carried to and laid out in the tomb, women eye-witnesses view the body in the tomb, the women leave to prepare burial spices, the sabbath with no work, next morning the women return with spices to find the tomb open, the body gone, and "holy" beings testifying as to the whereabouts of a living Jesus. the women run to tell the apostles. So, tell me there is no empty cross. The cross upon which Jesus died became empty when the body was "taken down". The grave became occupied, then the grave became empty because the Jesus that you keep on the cross is alive, there are an estimated 'over 400' eye-witness reports of people who saw Jesus alive after the grave became empty. Therefore, protestants believe that the cross is empty, the grave is empty, and that Jesus ascended to the Father's right hand in Heaven.

The fact that Protestants use the symbol in a standing position, does not change the fact that the cross is empty.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

So, tell me there is no empty cross. The cross upon which Jesus died became empty when the body was "taken down".

There is nothing is Scripture that says the cross remained a cross or was empty. Even if it was not dismantled by taking the Lord's body from it, an empty cross doesn't show a resurrection. An empty tomb does. As I have stated it's like an empty manger, the symbolism loses me. The importance of preaching “Christ crucified” as St. Paul taught is replaced with preaching “Christ risen”. Yet, Jesus teaches we must take up our own cross and follow Him. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:27 Our cross remains to be carried.


God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

The events wrote of by Luke that I posted are not symbolic. They are first person reports of the events as they took place. Luke was writing to Theophilus, an obviously important person in the land.

[Luke 1:1] Seeing that many others have undertaken to draw up accounts of the events that have reached their fulfilment among us,
[Luke 1:2] as these were handed down to us by those who from the outset were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word,
[Luke 1:3] I in my turn, after carefully going over the whole story from the beginning, have decided to write an ordered account for you, Theophilus,
[Luke 1:4] so that your Excellency may learn how well founded the teaching is that you have received.

Luke has nothing to hide in symbolism, Kathryn. What you are reading in Luke 23 and 24 is factual reports.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

Luke has nothing to hide in symbolism, Kathryn. What you are reading in Luke 23 and 24 is factual reports.

I 100% agree that what Luke described actually happened, and Luke has nothing to hide. The events are real. Luke is not making up symbols. The real events however contain symbolism from God to teach not to hide. You earlier agreed that you understood the symbolic relationship between the manger and the cross. Both the birth of Christ and the death are 100% real, yet contain symbolism. This symbolic relationship isn’t to hide messages, but to teach. You earlier said you understood all that.

There however is no empty cross in this account. You can speculate, but that's all. It's not part of the Bible. Now an empty tomb shows the Resurrection of Christ. I have no problem with Christians using the empty cross, as a symbol, but I don't see any Biblical basis for it. Why do you think symbolism is used to hide things? I don’t think Christians use the symbol of the empty cross to hide anything. It would be used to teach.


God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Luke has nothing to hide in symbolism, Kathryn. What you are reading in Luke 23 and 24 is factual reports.

I 100% agree that what Luke described actually happened, and Luke has nothing to hide. The events are real. Luke is not making up symbols. The real events however contain symbolism from God to teach not to hide. You earlier agreed that you understood the symbolic relationship between the manger and the cross. Both the birth of Christ and the death are 100% real, yet contain symbolism. This symbolic relationship isn’t to hide messages, but to teach. You earlier said you understood all that.

There however is no empty cross in this account. You can speculate, but that's all. It's not part of the Bible. Now an empty tomb shows the Resurrection of Christ. I have no problem with Christians using the empty cross, as a symbol, but I don't see any Biblical basis for it. Why do you think symbolism is used to hide things? I don’t think Christians use the symbol of the empty cross to hide anything. It would be used to teach.


God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Was it traditional to take a body still on the cross of crucifixion and put it in the tomb?

Did Jesus appear to his disciples, after resurrection, still nailed to the wooden cross?

Was Jesus seen ascending to the Father's right hand still nailed to the wooden cross?

If yes, then maybe we've finally uncovered one of those "oral traditions" that Catholocism is so "secretive" about! Of course that would make the written accounts of the first person eyewitnesses completely null and void now wouldn't it? If the eyewitness accounts are made invalid, the the whole of the Holy Scriptures becomes invalid. But that would have no affect on the Catholic church because it has "oral traditions" upon which it relies.

I can see now why God made man the head of the family as Jesus is head of the church! The woman doesn't think things through, and is therefore gullible to any seduction (wind of doctrine)!

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

The account of Luke as I have said is 100% accurate and factual. Jesus Christ has risen from the dead. This same Holy Scripture teaches Jesus Christ is the slain Lamb of God and the high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. Do you agree? Jesus teaches we must take up our own cross and follow Him. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:27 Our cross remains for us to carry..do you believe that? Do you agree? Disagree?

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Yelsew:

The account of Luke as I have said is 100% accurate and factual. Jesus Christ has risen from the dead. This same Holy Scripture teaches Jesus Christ is the slain Lamb of God and the high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. Do you agree? Jesus teaches we must take up our own cross and follow Him. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:27 Our cross remains for us to carry..do you believe that? Do you agree? Disagree?

God Bless

NO Kathryn we are not in agreement, because you insist that Jesus remains in the state of crucifixion. There are many who were crucified who remain today in a crucified state, that is, dead, but NOT JESUS! The result of Crucifixion is death. Jesus is alive! Did he die? absolutely, but HE was resurrected to life, unencumbered by a wooden cross! There are many eyewitness reports of that truth! Jesus is no longer ON THE CROSS as the Catholic Church portrays Him and indeed insists that he is.

Yes, ALL Protestant churches preach "Christ Crucified" but only as a precursor to "He is Risen". Because for one to be resurrected one must first be dead, and crucifixion was the method by which Jesus died.

Yes, Jesus was known in Heaven before the earth was formed to be the Lamb of God slain. He however, is now known in heaven as "the WORTHY LAMB OF GOD! No longer facing death, but forever receiving honor and Glory for bringing salvation to mankind whom God the father so loves.

Yes, Jesus is the High Priest, in the same manner that Melchisedec was High Priest, meaning that He has the office of High Priest because he is worthy to hold that office because of who and what he is.

Jesus' words tell us that we must die to self in order to serve him. That is, we must take up our own cross in the manner that he took his own cross to Golgotha. The cross that you would have me take up is the one with Jesus still on it, I refuse to take up that cross because I am not worthy to tie the laces of his sandels, let alone carry His cross. Besides we each have our own crosses to bear whether or not we bear them. Jesus never asked us to carry HIS cross.

So, Kathryn, though we may agree on some points, we will never agree that Jesus remains ON THE CROSS! HE DOES NOT! He is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven, receiving honor and glory from the heavenly hosts. It is insulting to see him in a state of humiliation, which if you are honest in your evaluation, is the purpose of the Roman cross, the cross that the Catholic church so proudly displays with the figure of a man there on.

I really hope you will consider this truth.

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:
I have never said, nor do I believe Jesus Christ remained on the cross. I have stated Jesus Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead. So, your argument is invalid. I said, Jesus Christ teaches we must take up our own cross and follow Him. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:27

I have never stated that we are to carry Jesus’ cross. Nor do I believe it. I have already said that Jesus teaches we must take up our own cross and follow Him.

“Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4 This is where we carry our own cross and follow Him.

Jesus Christ has risen from the dead. Yet, he is the slain Lamb of God and the high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. This is why St. Paul says “we preach Christ crucified. This is why they shared in the same sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. This same High priest, Jesus Christ, was sharing His one and only Sacrifice in an unbloody manner with St. Paul who was not at the foot of the cross. He was sharing in this sacrifice of the body and blood with the cup of blessing they blessed and the bread they broke.
“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew:
I have never said, nor do I believe Jesus Christ remained on the cross.

Then why the staunch defense of the Roman Cross with the male figure hanging on it? If your Jesus is risen, take him off the cross!

 

[Kathryn]

The figure on the cross is a reminder of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. It’s a reminder of how we share in His sacrifice on the cross. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16 St. Paul understood. That's why he said they preach Christ crucified.