Christmas Mass in Rome

[GraceSaves]

Yelsew,

How much longer are you going to argue this? Her argument is clear, and you just keep convoluting what she is saying to keep it going. You state that she believes things she never said. She repeats what she believes, and then you spout back something that she didn't said.

I would say I don't understand what you're doing, but I did the same thing when I was presented with Catholic doctrine at a Lutheran. What they said made sense, but I just COULDN'T become Catholic, so I had to make up bogus arguments to keep myself out of it.

I pray you'll wake up and see how silly your arguments are.

 

[Kiffin]

Actually, the Crucifix can be found in Protestant churches. Luther never had a problem with the crucifix and it has been common in Lutheran Churches for centuries. Luther actually encouraged Christians to pray with a crucifix because it is a reminder of the terrible price of salvation. Some Anglican churches also have them. A Crucifix no more means Jesus is still on the cross than a Nativity scene means he is still in the manger.

A good Protestant defense of Crucifixes is found at

Crucifixes Can Be a Reminder of Salvation By Grace Alone


I received a San Damiano Crucifix as a Christmas Present this year and I have it in my private prayer room at my home. It reminds me both of Christ finished work on the Cross and his Resurrection.

 

[GraceSaves]

Kiffin,

Thank you for posting. Perhaps Yelsew will be more inclined to listen to you, even though you are saying the same thing Kathryn has been saying all along.

 

[Kathryn]

Kiffin : I also have the San Damiano Crucifix over my computer here. "The Crucifix contains the story of the death, resurrection and ascension into glory. It expresses the total and universal Paschal Mystery of Christ." Here is a website that shows the crucifix and describes the detail.

THE SAN DAMIANO CROSS
http://www.capuchinfriars.org.au/sandam.html


....The central figure of the icon is Christ not only because of the relative size but Christ is a figure of light dominating the scene and giving light to the other figures "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. " (John 8:12). Christ stands upright, not nailed. The eyes of Jesus are open: He looks out to the world, which He has saved. He is alive, the one who is eternal. Jesus' vestment is a simple loin cloth - a symbol of both High Priest and Victim. The chest, throat and neck are very strong, Jesus gives power of re-creation to His Disciples (John 22:23). He breathed on His Disciples (John 20:22), the Greek word used recalls the moment of Creation (Gen 2:7). The shadow over the face of Jesus is increased by the fact the halo and face are tilted forward on the original Icon. The humanity of Christ veils the true glory of the Word who lives in the super illuminous darkness of the Godhead.
Behind the outstretched arms of Christ is His empty tomb, shown as a black rectangle...

[ January 02, 2004, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Carson Weber]

The San Damiano Crucifix is a widely-used icon on our campus at the Franciscan University of Steubenville, and I have a rather large rendition of it hanging over the mantle in our living room at school, which I purchased when I was in Assisi, Italy in 2001.

To learn more about it, click on this link:

http://www.capuchinfriars.org.au/sandam.html

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
The figure on the cross is a reminder of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. It’s a reminder of how we share in His sacrifice on the cross. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16 St. Paul understood. That's why he said they preach Christ crucified.

The Eucharist is supposed to be the reminder of what the Christ did, HE said so! He never once said "keep me on the cross to remind you of what I did for you". But he did tell the apostles after the breaking of bread and drinking of the cup, "as oft as ye do this, do it in remembrance of me".

The reminder is the broken bread and the wine. the image of a man on the cross is idolatry, as it is a graven image.

I am confident that the Apostles did not carry a crucifix to remind them of what Jesus did, and they gave no instruction for the first century church to do that either. Not one of their writings give instruction to engrave or carve images of Jesus on the cross. It is grossly UN-CHRISTIAN, and UN-JEWISH to carry idols and to have them on display in the gathering places and in our homes. If you are Christian as you say you are. Cease and desist this vile practice. For the one Christians are named after declares the Law stands!

I see no difference in Catholics with Crucifixes, and Greeks with their idols of their goddess Diana, or the Romans with their idols. They're all the same. They are all violating commandment #2 out of 10. by making graven images, and #3 out of 10 for kneeling before those carved or graven images to say their prayers. By the Holy Name of Jesus that is what you do when you kneel and genuflex as you enter the sanctuary that has a Crucifix at or near the table of worship in the front of the church. I have personally witnessed it hundreds of times.

Exodus 20:4. You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.

Matthew 5:17. `Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them.
18. In truth I tell you, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, is to disappear from the Law until all its purpose is achieved.
19. Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of Heaven; but the person who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great in the kingdom of Heaven.

The last time I looked at a crucifix, it certainly appeared to be a carved or molded image of a man on a cross. Now I know it isn't Jesus on that cross, because Jesus is alive and seated at the Father's right hand IN HEAVEN. So that leaves nothing more than the image of a man who is of this earth.

And since Jesus told us that he did not come to do away with the law, and that those who violate even the least of the commandments will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven, guess who gets to do "pots and pans" for eternity? Seems to me, the answer is the Pope and the Priesthood of the Roman Catholic church for not doing away with the Crucifix, "a graven image".

 

[GraceSaves]

So please explain how an empty cross is not a graven image.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
So please explain how an empty cross is not a graven image.

Good point! However, the Cross is an instrument of death, a tool, an emplement used for a specific purpose. When empty, is represents nothing more than what a pair of pliers, or hammer, hanging on the wall represents. When Christians look up and see the empty tool, we know what it is used for, but we also know it is not in use, it is idle!

With the graven image of a man hung on the cross, it becomes an Idol, because in Christian circles everyone knows the man on the cross represents Jesus whom we are instructed to worship, and to which every knee shall bow. The connection is made in the form of an idol and when one kneels "in prayer" before that image, one is paying homage to the idol.

When one kneels before an empty cross, we are paying homage not to the cross, but to the one who is no longer on the cross. The cross becomes our symbol and banner of victory because Jesus lives, victorious over death, after having died upon that instrument. The empty cross remains an instrument, a tool, upon which death occured, but which has no power over life, just a worthless chunk of wood.

 

[trying2understand]

Yelsew, getting back to your original post...

The question was asked of you, and I'm sorry if your answer got lost in the scuffle, how far are you willing to carry your notion concerning material goods and the church?

Should the church own no property?

Should members of a church wear only their worst clothes to church?

Should Christians even own nice clothes or have any kind of a home?

To be consistent with what you say of Catholics, all Christians should expend all their resources only to spreading the Gospel.

So how far do you take it?

 

[Kiffin]

Kathryn and Carson thanks for the info on the cross.

Mine was given to me by my Mother and it is a blessing for my devotional life.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Yelsew, getting back to your original post...

The question was asked of you, and I'm sorry if your answer got lost in the scuffle, how far are you willing to carry your notion concerning material goods and the church?

Should the church own no property?

Should members of a church wear only their worst clothes to church?

Should Christians even own nice clothes or have any kind of a home?

To be consistent with what you say of Catholics, all Christians should expend all their resources only to spreading the Gospel.

So how far do you take it?

Jesus said 'Consider the lilies of the field...', I suppose the answer to the question is how much is enough? Who needs all the wealth when your God is the God of creation that owns all there is anyway?

Owning property? Are we talking real estate or "personal property"? The adornments of what I saw on TV, in my opinion are excessive opulence. Perhaps modest real estate holdings if fitting, after all the gathering place needs to be free from civil incumberences, a stable place that attendees know where meetings will take place.

Church dress should not be an expression of ones wealth....period.

The bible does not speak against private property ownership nor does is speak against fine clothing. However, it depends on why one wears their finest or most expensive clothing to church. If for show, one should not, if for status, one should not. If one's clothing all bears the mark of wealth, then wear the most modest. Church is not the place for "my dog's bigger 'n yours" stuff.

The distance that I am willing to take the issue is "everything in modesty", "everything tempered", don't make of yourself a mark for criticism.

 

[Charles33]

Yelsew:

You were saying that you go to Methodist, Baptist, Catholic churches all the time, whatever you feel like going to on any given Sunday. Then you ask:

Do you find sin in what I do?

No. I am glad you go out and attend worship services with other Christians. I think that is great.

In honesty, I would rather you settle among a congregation close to your home in your community, so you can become a part of your parishes life. This can be very enriching. I am talking about all the wonderful people that you eventually feel like family with, and the personal leverage we gain in deep relationships. Youngsters and teenagers will question all of this religion eventually. You can be a bulwark in thier life.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Charles33:
Yelsew:

You were saying that you go to Methodist, Baptist, Catholic churches all the time, whatever you feel like going to on any given Sunday. Then you ask:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Do you find sin in what I do?

No. I am glad you go out and attend worship services with other Christians. I think that is great.

In honesty, I would rather you settle among a congregation close to your home in your community, so you can become a part of your parishes life. This can be very enriching. I am talking about all the wonderful people that you eventually feel like family with, and the personal leverage we gain in deep relationships. Youngsters and teenagers will question all of this religion eventually. You can be a bulwark in thier life. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you, but I've been there and done that. I get most of what you suggest simply by being Christian. Membership in a congregation is not may cup of tea.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
When Christians look up and see the empty tool, we know what it is used for, but we also know it is not in use, it is idle!

When Christians look up and see Christ on the cross, we know the sacrifice He paid.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
With the graven image of a man hung on the cross, it becomes an Idol, because in Christian circles everyone knows the man on the cross represents Jesus whom we are instructed to worship, and to which every knee shall bow. The connection is made in the form of an idol and when one kneels "in prayer" before that image, one is paying homage to the idol.

This is unScriptural nonsense. The Ten Commandments say that any THING in Heaven, on earth, or under the earth is a graven image. It says nothing about the representation of a human figure. It says "thing." And yet you write just after this:

When one kneels before an empty cross, we are paying homage not to the cross, but to the one who is no longer on the cross.

Hogwash. You can kneel in front of a cross and its okay for what reason? Because there is not an image of Christ on it? Making up the rules as you go along, as usual.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The cross becomes our symbol and banner of victory because Jesus lives, victorious over death, after having died upon that instrument. The empty cross remains an instrument, a tool, upon which death occured, but which has no power over life, just a worthless chunk of wood.

The crucifix becomes our symbol and banner of the sacrifice which Christ paid, in which He paid the ransom that no man could pay.

Your arguement is terrible, and thank God someone like Kiffin (a liturgical Baptist) can see through your deception and your unScriptural definitions of what one can kneel before and what one cannot. I find it hard to trust a person who does something like this.