Christmas thoughts

[saturneptune]

The Catholic Church condemns praying to statues, pictures, icons, etc.

There is one.

That is baloney. We went to a mass 2 months ago to see a great nephew baptized, and saw people bowing to stautes all over the perimeters of the church.

 

[lori4dogs]

You really know nothing about Catholic teaching about confession, closed communion, divorce, etc. Read the Catechism of Catholic Church before you make your absurd statements. Until then, I don't think I want to discuss any of this with you. I will wait for you to name those 'high level authorities' you claim you know of.

Waiting, and waiting.

 

[lori4dogs]

That is baloney. We went to a mass 2 months ago to see a great nephew baptized, and saw people bowing to stautes all over the perimeters of the church.

I saw a Baptist minister kneeling before a chair with a Bible on it in prayer. Guess he was bowing to the chair (or the bible).

Glad to hear about your great nephew though!

 

[saturneptune]

You really know nothing about Catholic teaching about confession, closed communion, divorce, etc. Read the Catechism of Catholic Church before you make your absurd statements. Until then, I don't think I want to discuss any of this with you. I will wait for you to name those 'high level authorities' you claim you know of.

Waiting, and waiting.

You do not want to talk about it because you have no defense. You failed to answer any question, especially the most important one, how does one go from being a Baptist to a Catholic?

 

[lori4dogs]

You do not want to talk about it because you have no defense. You failed to answer any question, especially the most important one, how does one go from being a Baptist to a Catholic?

Much study my friend.

And the reason I'm not going to take each of those topics on is because this is a common tactic on this board. Actually, Catholics much better at defending the faith than myself have done a marvelous job of this on this very board. Just go back and educate yourself.

You make comments that YOU can't defend and then try to start the idol worship, altar boy abusing, etc. as a way of keeping me from calling you on your nonsense.

I ask you to tell me who your 'high level authorities' are. You keep ignoring this. Then you try to change the subject. It is obvious who is really avoiding the question.

 

[lori4dogs]

Oh, well. Good night all. I'm sure those 'high level authorities' will be posted eventually. Gee, I wonder who they are! Surely not Archbishops. Maybe some Cardinals!

 

[lori4dogs]

I do have one question for you to give some thought. Do you actually think your heart was ever truly a Baptist and their core beliefs? I can understand going from Catholic to Baptist by spiritual maturity, but how do you go from Baptist to Catholic? What was going through your mind as you sat in a Bapitst church and heard the Gospel, or listened to a Wednesday night Bible study? It is much easier to understand going from say Presbyterian to Baptist, back and forth than this.

Another point, if as you claim, Protestants and Baptists are welcome into heaven with Catholics, why is your church so strict about closed communion. It would be easier to understand if there was within the Catholic Church the concept of a local autonomous church, but there is no such thing.

Just have to comment on this one. I was a faithful member of a SBC. My particular SBC practiced closed communion. And actually, I went from Baptist to Catholic as a result of spiritual maturity. I'm certainly not the only one. I know of evangelical pastors, missionaries, etc. who have done the same thing. Oh, and I can NAME them! Still waiting for you to do the same with those 'high level authorities'.

 

[saturneptune]

Much study my friend.

And the reason I'm not going to take each of those topics on is because this is a common tactic on this board. Actually, Catholics much better at defending the faith than myself have done a marvelous job of this on this very board. Just go back and educate yourself.

You make comments that YOU can't defend and then try to start the idol worship, altar boy abusing, etc. as a way of keeping me from calling you on your nonsense.

I ask you to tell me who your 'high level authorities' are. You keep ignoring this. Then you try to change the subject. It is obvious who is really avoiding the question.

How would I know who the higher level authorites were? It was a forum similar to this and they claimed to be very learned teachers in some of your schools. Another member has given you evidence about salvation and the Catholic Church. I guess another question that comes to mind is, why are you here, on a Baptist board?

 

[saturneptune]

Just have to comment on this one. I was a faithful member of a SBC. My particular SBC practiced closed communion. And actually, I went from Baptist to Catholic as a result of spiritual maturity. I'm certainly not the only one. I know of evangelical pastors, missionaries, etc. who have done the same thing. Oh, and I can NAME them! Still waiting for you to do the same with those 'high level authorities'.

The reason the church you went to practiced closed communion is that they are a local autonomous church, and voted to do so. That is their right. As many if not more Baptist churches have open, as that is their right. The Catholic church is not the same. It is one big church, without local or autonomous churches, so the theological geniuses at the top of your church make the decision for as you say, one billion people. Local churches are the Biblical standard.

 

[DHK]

No, you made an accusation that you can't support.

I can support it and will. Bear with me. Remember that the Bible is my final authority in all things. Surely you are not afraid of discussing the Bible, and from a RCC point of view at that.
Again, what does John 3:5 mean?

 

[DHK]

Maybe your right. It has just been my perception after visiting this board over the years. I know there are a number of denominations represented in this forum.

If you had any kind of Baptist background at all you would have realized that Calvinism is a system of theology embraced by a number of denominations--Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc. It is not the mainstream of Baptists, though many may be. I am not a Calvinist, as Marcia said she was not. Things like this are just elementary knowledge to just about any Baptist.

BTW, Calvin got his ideas from Augustine.

 

[saturneptune]

Another point which makes me wonder just how much of a Baptist you were is the fact we are not a denomination. We are local autonomous churches with a cooperative effort with other local churches, and cooperative organizations at the state and national levels. We have no heirarchy. The SBC does not call our pastors, nor do they own our building or land. We are not a denomination. Baptist is a distinctive of core beliefs, and it does not include Pope baby, or confessing sins through a bozo in a telephone booth.

Frankly, I do not know if your cult is Calvinistic or Arminian. It cannot be Calvinistic, because God elects the saved by regeneration on His part, not by holy water in the pool, joining a church, kissing the Pope, or praying people out of purgatory. I really do not see how it could be Arminian, because after conviction of the Holy Spirit, man chooses or rejects the call of the Lord, and in your world, its a matter of learning man made sayings, rituals, saving baptism, joining the church, and a bunch of hail Marys'. It is all mechanical, without a one on one relationship with the Lord.

I would really like to know, if someone is lost at death, what determines whether he goes to purgatory, or hell until it is replaced with the Lake of Fire?

 

[Marcia]

Maybe your right. It has just been my perception after visiting this board over the years. I know there are a number of denominations represented in this forum.

And within denominations, you have Calvinists and non-Calvinists.

It's just that the Callies (my new nickname for them) are often the loudest.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

If you had any kind of Baptist background at all you would have realized that Calvinism is a system of theology embraced by a number of denominations--Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc... Another point which makes me wonder just how much of a Baptist you were is the fact we are not a denomination. We are local autonomous churches with a cooperative effort with other local churches, and cooperative organizations at the state and national levels. We have no heirarchy. The SBC does not call our pastors, nor do they own our building or land. We are not a denomination.

Really????

Most Baptists would know about Calvinism? I grew up Baptist and we never ever discussed Arminianism, Calvinism, etc. It was a non-issue. It wasn't even discussed. I never really studied either until I left the Baptist church.

Baptists are not a denomination? Really? Sounds kind of like the CofC to me. You check out anything on Christianity and you would see Baptists being listed as a denomination. Just because there is no hierachy does not mean that you are not a denomination. (By the way, there are other denominations that don't have hierarchies either.) Ask most Baptists what denomination they are, and you'll get "Baptist" as an answer, not some gobblygook how they are not a denomination.

Methinks the attacks have gotten rather nasty and personal. Too sad.

 

[saturneptune]

If you had any kind of Baptist background at all you would have realized that Calvinism is a system of theology embraced by a number of denominations--Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc... Another point which makes me wonder just how much of a Baptist you were is the fact we are not a denomination. We are local autonomous churches with a cooperative effort with other local churches, and cooperative organizations at the state and national levels. We have no heirarchy. The SBC does not call our pastors, nor do they own our building or land. We are not a denomination.

Really????

Most Baptists would know about Calvinism? I grew up Baptist and we never ever discussed Arminianism, Calvinism, etc. It was a non-issue. It wasn't even discussed. I never really studied either until I left the Baptist church.

Baptists are not a denomination? Really? Sounds kind of like the CofC to me. You check out anything on Christianity and you would see Baptists being listed as a denomination. Just because there is no hierachy does not mean that you are not a denomination. (By the way, there are other denominations that don't have hierarchies either.) Ask most Baptists what denomination they are, and you'll get "Baptist" as an answer, not some gobblygook how they are not a denomination.

Methinks the attacks have gotten rather nasty and personal. Too sad.

If you do not like the post, then go to another thread. Don't you have some infants to sprinkle?

 

[DHK]

If you had any kind of Baptist background at all you would have realized that Calvinism is a system of theology embraced by a number of denominations--Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc... Another point which makes me wonder just how much of a Baptist you were is the fact we are not a denomination. We are local autonomous churches with a cooperative effort with other local churches, and cooperative organizations at the state and national levels. We have no heirarchy. The SBC does not call our pastors, nor do they own our building or land. We are not a denomination.

Really????

But now you are a Presbyterian, and thus you know all about Calvinism. We don't know how long you were in a Baptist Church or what kind of Baptist Church it was. There are as many kinds of Baptist churches as there are denominations. Some people are unfortunate to get into one of those that never teach the meat of the word, and that it too bad. Some churches are too concerned with the outward appearance rather than the inward condition.

Most Baptists would know about Calvinism? I grew up Baptist and we never ever discussed Arminianism, Calvinism, etc. It was a non-issue. It wasn't even discussed. I never really studied either until I left the Baptist church.

Take a poll on this board. It is Baptist. Are most of the Baptists on this board acquainted with Calvinism. When I first mentioned Calvinism, I mentioned it in the context that they had at least heard of it and had a vague idea of it, in contrast to "never hearing about it."

Baptists are not a denomination? Really? Sounds kind of like the CofC to me. You check out anything on Christianity and you would see Baptists being listed as a denomination. Just because there is no hierachy does not mean that you are not a denomination. (By the way, there are other denominations that don't have hierarchies either.) Ask most Baptists what denomination they are, and you'll get "Baptist" as an answer, not some gobblygook how they are not a denomination.

For a person wanting statistical information Baptists are considered a denomination. That is what you would find in an Encyclopedia, but then even an encyclopedia would break down the major groups of Baptists.
However, if a person is a member of a Baptist church, having read the statement of faith, and agreed to the constitution of the local church of which he became a member, how could he not know that he is not a member of a denomination?? It is one of the most basic distinctives of the Baptist faith (not denomination, but faith).

Methinks the attacks have gotten rather nasty and personal. Too sad.

Yes I agree. There are some attacks that are a bit too nasty and unnecessary. Although still unwarranted, what happens is this: a poster comes and posts that he/she was a former Baptist (indicating a knowledge of the Baptist faith), but in the posts made show an insultingly lack of knowledge of the Baptist faith. So why claim to have been a Baptist in the first place?

 

[saturneptune]

My apologies to DHK, and will back off the sharp words.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Indeed. I'm merely pointing out the fact that you don't get to talk about "we" getting upset and calling people a heretic when you have done the exact same thing yourself.

As for what you said in response to my point about sacrificing meat to idols, I'm pretty sure the intent of Paul's words wasn't to give you a way to be manipulative.

I've used those terms on this thread to maintain consistency with the position I was holding. Which ultimately is my point. And as for the other; Are you sure? How do you know what Paul was thinking? :smilewinkgrin:

In reality there is a principle that Paul was speaking about with food offered to Idols. As Christians we are servants to serve each other. Because we have a strength in us to understand that the food offered to Idols will not defile us, there are weaker Christians who do. Therefore we submit ourselfs to their beliefs that we don't cause them to stumble because if something is believed to be sin by someone for them it is. Even if God doesn't look at it that way. I often use this principle when it comes to Alchohol but it can be used in many other cases. And paganism is so prevelant in our culture and churches that to maintain a consistent position with regard to this consept of all or nothing refutation of paganism and idolatry; my position would indeed be the weaker one. Does not mean its invalid at least to me. Following that train of thought and the principle of Paul the one who thinks all things pagan to be sin must be adhered to.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How would I know who the higher level authorites were? It was a forum similar to this and they claimed to be very learned teachers in some of your schools. Another member has given you evidence about salvation and the Catholic Church. I guess another question that comes to mind is, why are you here, on a Baptist board?

I think what happens here is that Baptist, though we emphasise bible study and working on our personal relationship, seems at times not to emphasise spiritual disciplines. Of course since we are independent Churches it may not be fair but it certainly is something I've noticed at my church. I am very involved. I'm on the selection committee, I participate in Sunday School, My family Goes to most events, My kids participate in AWANA. We go sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday nights. My wife is involved in the Choir. Yet the thing I notice with other members is the lack of after church involvement in faith developement. The bible studies are often repeated affairs and the same topics are gone over again and again. But no one emphasises spiritual discipline. So when members see history and the commitments made by others they become enamoursed with the idea of spiritual discipline. The Catholic Church regulates just about everything. To adhere to all of its devotions and practices is inclusive of some sort of activity on every calander day. Christains not regularily practicing things like fasting, longer than 15 minute a day devotion times, and the such with accountability start to respect the regimented Catholic Church (and what that church calls the "religious") and want to incorporate the same practices into their lives such as the office of the Divine liturgy or the Lectio Divina and the multitudes of other such devotions to "keep them on track" with their faith. So I can see how a baptist may become interested in Catholicism. Yet over time this attraction can lead to a conversion because of the regimented form of this faith. I look at it like the military. Before I went into the military I was a slob. Basic cleared me up of that and now I still do things the way the military taught me and I like it. Yes I still use hospital corners making my bed. I think this is how it happens. Just a thought.

 

[lori4dogs]

If you had any kind of Baptist background at all you would have realized that Calvinism is a system of theology embraced by a number of denominations--Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc. It is not the mainstream of Baptists, though many may be. I am not a Calvinist, as Marcia said she was not. Things like this are just elementary knowledge to just about any Baptist.

BTW, Calvin got his ideas from Augustine.

This will be my last time posting here. The attacks have become nasty and dis-respectful. Not becoming Christians at all. If I were a non-believer visiting this board and read the sleasy attacks on Catholics and the Catholic Church I don't think I would want much to do with your brand of Christianity.

I was educated in a SBC college, a faithful Baptist for years. I enjoy reading Charles Stanley even though I may not agree with him any longer.

No, Baptist are not followers of brother John Calvin in the way a Presbyterian might be. But I think you know there are strong Calvinist leanings in the Baptist camp.

BTW, Find me a Lutheran pastor that says he is a Calvinist. Bet you can't.