Christmas thoughts

[Thinkingstuff]

um, that's a historical fact.

Yeah, historical fact that you are following a pagan tradition of celebrating Sol Invictus.

 

[Revmitchell]

I was considering that verse and it seems to be discussing Christian distinctiveness counter Judaism. Paul doesn't want the Jews forcing their observances upon the Christians. Just because Theodocius I outlawed paganism in the Empire doesn't it's ok for Christians to Hijack the Festival of Sol Invictus and call it Christ Mass for an erronious[sic] date of Jesus birth.

"Highjack" hmmm....... quite the adjective. More doubt about your claim to be a Baptist.

 

[Johnv]

I was considering that verse and it seems to be discussing Christian distinctiveness counter Judaism.

Good point. Although he was primarily addressing Judaism, he wasn't exclusively addressing Judaism, and doesn't appear to be excluding Greek customs or pracitces that would be considered unusual or possibly even offensive to Jewish converts.

I'm not concerned about secular or pagan origins of Christmas any more than I'm concerned about the secular or pagan origins of Easter, or, for that matter, the names of the days of the week, the celebrating of the new year, the pagan origin of the handshake, the Muslim origin of our numerals, etc etc etc. If someone has concern, then let that person refrain, being convinced in his own mind. But let that person not judge another for his observance.

More doubt about your claim to be a Baptist.

Since the observance of festivals or holidays is not a Baptist Dictinctive, expressing concern over the observance of festivals and holidays does not disqualify one from being Baptist.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They'd be wrong, because ancient pagan religions have long since dies out. Modern paganism is an articially contrived religion, which lifts bits and pieces from ancient pagan myth and folkore. It's still paganism, but it's not the same as ancient paganism.

They used to be, but aren't anymore. That's simply due to the fact that the calendar has had to be adjusted. Christ was born circa 4bc, and since the notation is based on an inaccuracy (no year "0"), the use of BCE/ACE, or BCE/CE, has slowly been replacing BC/AD over the last few centuries. CE stands for "Christian Era", "Common Era", or "Current Era" depending on its context and usage. If the BC/AD calendar were to shift again, the BCE/CE calendar would remain fixed where it is now.

(this is the part where someone chimes in objecting to the use of CE, but there's not really much to that objection.)

They'd be right and How do you feel about the BCE and CE thing? Thats how the followers of Sol Invictus probably felt about December 25th. You even have a pagan tree and a witchcraft wreath on the door to welcome the spring! And you have toping your pagan tree either Polaris or a New Age spiritual guide to usher in your pagan holiday. Both are used in pagan lore. And you tell your children about an Old Catholic Saint who is worshiped by papist. And you're ok with this?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"Highjack" hmmm....... quite the adjective. More doubt about your claim to be a Baptist.

What else would you call it. It was the Roman Emperor who started the Roman Catholic Church that initiated celebration of this pagan Festival into the Christ Mass which bapist do not celebrate Mass. I suggest we celebrate Christ birth in September as it should be since he was born then. I'm following the bible you are following the papist.

 

[ccrobinson]

I suggest we celebrate Christ birth in September as it should be since he was born then.

Go for it. Knock yourself out. I'll continue to celebrate Christ's birth in December and let's call it even. I, for one, won't be casting aspersions on you for doing so as long as you don't....

I'm following the bible you are following the papist.

Oh, I see you're already casting aspersions for celebrating Christ's birth in December. I don't quite understand what you think you're gaining.

I mean reading the NT we can guess that Jesus was most likely born in September maybe around the 16th.

He was? You may be right, but how did you determine this?

 

[Johnv]

They'd be right and How do you feel about the BCE and CE thing?

Good question. My faith isn't contingent upon the initials that follow a year, and more than it's contingent upon abandoning Roman numerals for Arabic ones. But if others get their tights in a wad over it, more power to them.

And you have toping your pagan tree either Polaris or a New Age spiritual guide...

My tree actually has Mickey Mouse on the top.

And you tell your children about an Old Catholic Saint who is worshiped by papist. And you're ok with this?

Easy now, he's spoken of in the Bible, you know:

"Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north" - Zechariah 2:6

 

[rbell]

Yeah, historical fact that you are following a pagan tradition of celebrating Sol Invictus.

Look, if you can't follow how the Greek alphabet operates, this conversation probably won't go too far.

Enjoy your little crusade.

 

[Marcia]

They are right because Jesus isn't the reason for the season historically it was Sol Invictus. Sol Invictus is the reason for the season or more appropiately an astrological event were daylight becomes longer. The Jesus "tag" was added latter to make it more palpable to a politically correct empire. So you're celebrating a holiday to meet the definition of political correctness 1600 years ago!!!!! And it is a pagan holiday ahhh!!!! You guys are following the Roman Empire and not Christ!!!! You're no better than the Papist!!!!! :smilewinkgrin:

I am not celebrating a pagan holiday because I worship the true God. I am not worshipping pagan gods.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not celebrating a pagan holiday because I worship the true God. I am not worshipping[sic] pagan gods.

Not sure why that needed explaining but apparently some folks are to thick headed. Add to that the entire notion is based on a date.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

I suggest we celebrate Christ birth in September as it should be since he was born then.

How do you know that? Please lay it out for me and for the rest of us.

Thanks.

 

[Revmitchell]

What else would you call it. It was the Roman Emperor who started the Roman Catholic Church that initiated celebration of this pagan Festival into the Christ Mass which bapist do not celebrate Mass. I suggest we celebrate Christ birth in September as it should be since he was born then. I'm following the bible you are following the papist.

Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I like Bono's reference to Christ and Christmas in U2's "MOFO" song off their POP album...lookin' for baby Jesus under the trash.

In XC
-

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I am confused--I've read this thread, and perhaps I've missed it, but where does it say in the Bible that Christ was born in September? (Chapter and Verse)

 

[Marcia]

I am confused--I've read this thread, and perhaps I've missed it, but where does it say in the Bible that Christ was born in September? (Chapter and Verse)

It doesn't. I've heard May suggested before as well. I've heard some say since the shepherds were with their sheep, it had to be spring, but then I heard that wasn't true - it could have been other times of the year as well.

I think it's good we don't know. I think any day we want to celebrate Christ's birth is good, even if it was formerly a pagan holiday and then proclaimed Christ's birthday by a pope. This does not make the day of Dec. 25 evil. As long as we are worshiping Christ, it doesn't matter.

 

[lori4dogs]

It doesn't. I've heard May suggested before as well. I've heard some say since the shepherds were with their sheep, it had to be spring, but then I heard that wasn't true - it could have been other times of the year as well.

I think it's good we don't know. I think any day we want to celebrate Christ's birth is good, even if it was formerly a pagan holiday and then proclaimed Christ's birthday by a pope. This does not make the day of Dec. 25 evil. As long as we are worshiping Christ, it doesn't matter.

The pope never said it WAS the day that Christ was born. It was simply decided that it was the day Christ birth would be celebrated. Again, more misconceptions about Catholicism.

Also, I have read that the early Christians celebrated Christ resurrection on the same day that the pagans were worshiping their sun god because it was easier not to be discovered if the pagans were pre-occupied.

 

[Marcia]

The pope never said it WAS the day that Christ was born. It was simply decided that it was the day Christ birth would be celebrated.

That's true. I should have clarified my statement.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How do you know that? Please lay it out for me and for the rest of us.

Thanks.

The fact is I don't really know when Jesus was born but I can guess-ti-mate and it wasn't December 25th or the festival of Sol Invictus. We find this out from the gospel of Luke

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah

The Division of Abijah referrences 1 Chronical 24: 7-18 7

Now the first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, 8 the third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, 9 the fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin, 10 the seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, 11 the ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah, 12 the eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim, 13 the thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab, 14 the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer, 15 the seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Happizzez, 16 the nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel, 17 the twenty-first to Jachin, the twenty-second to Gamul, 18 the twenty-third to Delaiah, the twenty-fourth to Maaziah.

Now assuming that the preisthood wanted to maintain their practices in accordance with the Torah as Ezra seems to be emphatic about it. They would try to maintain these times. The 8th course would have been in Nissan. Now in Exodus it says

1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you.

or March 15th so add 8 forenights with this date and we come to The temple service during the division of Abijah or July When we assume that Zechariah went home and Elizabeth became pregnant.

23When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.

So its likely that Mary conceived in Elizabeth's sixth month of pregnancy or December (maybe January).

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Then Add 9 months to that and you get September (or October). Any way that's how I figure it But note again its not December 25 which was the festival of Sol Invictus.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The pope never said it WAS the day that Christ was born. It was simply decided that it was the day Christ birth would be celebrated. Again, more misconceptions about Catholicism.

Also, I have read that the early Christians celebrated Christ resurrection on the same day that the pagans were worshiping their sun god because it was easier not to be discovered if the pagans were pre-occupied.

I blame it on Theodocius the 1st. Though the Christ Mass is celebrated on December 25th in accordance with the Holiday reserved for Sol Invictus by the Roman Empire.

 

[saturneptune]

The pope should wear a lit star on top of his beenie cap during the Christmas season.