Christology and Preterism Part 2

[Covenanter]

Is there any suggestion in the Apostolic preaching & letters that the Jewish race would suffer for many generations in punishment for rejecting their Messiah? The commandment refers to 3 - 4 generations:

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.​

Peter reassures the Jews that what they did in ignorance will be forgiven on repentance. He does warn the Jews concerning the danger of not hearing the "Prophet" & 5,000 believed! Acts 3:17-26, Acts 4:4 He goes on to tell the Sanhedrin of salvation by the name of Jesus.

The threats & warnings were to encourage repentance, & many thousands did repent. The Church comprised believing Jews from all round the Roman Empire. God calls believers "my people." As the Gospel spread Gentiles responded & they too became "my people" regardless of race. Zec. 2:11 quoted in 2 Cor. 6:16

Zec. 2:10 “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. 11 “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the Lord will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the Lord, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!”​

 

[prophecy70]

Then be humble enough to admit your ignorance. There is no shame in ignorance, unless it is embraced and touted, as has recently been done here.

If I have to admit ignorance, do you have to admit boastfulness?

 

[agedman]

Is there any suggestion in the Apostolic preaching & letters that the Jewish race would suffer for many generations in punishment for rejecting their Messiah?

Yep,

Have you not got Romans 11 in your Bible?

 

[agedman]

If I have to admit ignorance, do you have to admit boastfulness?

Establishing credentials to show the educational authority when addressing a matter such as John is doing is right and proper.

It allows for the readers to know that the poster (in this case John of Japan) is not just regurgitating some view or something from another person. But is using source material and documentation.

He is a professor of higher learning, and what he demands of students he must also demonstrate.

 

[prophecy70]

Establishing credentials to show the educational authority when addressing a matter such as John is doing is right and proper.

It allows for the readers to know that the poster (in this case John of Japan) is not just regurgitating some view or something from another person. But is using source material and documentation.

He is a professor of higher learning, and what he demands of students he must also demonstrate.

I am not denying this, I am not accusing him of being boastful, to clarify, I just simply asked, Because I have acknowledged many times previously, that I have no degrees, and its still repeated, that I need to admit it.

The thread ill start will be "The Education level of P70"

I lack credentials, I think we established that. Does it need to be REPEATED? No!

Do you accept educational authority with evolutionists, if you were debating that topic?

 

[prophecy70]

Yes, it DOES!

2 Thess.2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Rev. 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

From the same book/chaptet:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Rev. 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

I suggest you carefully read the entire chapters I quoted from, & then come back & tell us the Bible doesn't teach those things.

Im just going to use your playbook against you. Repeating the same thing every post.

Like I said the bible does not teach that.

 

[agedman]

Do you accept educational authority with evolutionists, if you were debating that topic?

Depends on the topic they are addressing.

If they are trying to preach a sermon on the Scriptures, I would listen, sift what is said, glean as gold that which was Scripturally solid and trash everything else.

If they were respected in the field of study, I would e compare how the views were alike and how they were different. I would take that which was agreeable with Scriptures and present that as truth, but that which departed from Scripture I would declare reasons why I could not support that thinking.

I have debated more than once the merits of OT prophecy and the messiah being the Christ with Jews and their teachers. Most listened and were willing to continue to share.

It helped to be non-confrontational and using (as did Christ) their own statements against them.

Admittedly, the most ignorant are those who in their education have placed political standing and authority upon the attainment of degrees.

The beginning of wisdom is to know God, both by virtue, by knowledge, by ... (1 Peter 1:5-7).

Education is good, and good education is better, but in my own experience with students, the best education was found in that struggling student who worked both physically and mentally to achieve the degree.

The hard working student usually built character, and practical experience that the student became not merely able to account for educational knowledge but one who knew how to stick to a responsibility until it was completed and God honoring.

That student had a resource of daily answers to earnest prayer and had first hand experience with what is meant by total reliance upon God, that others just did not experience. So, though possessing a degree, they were not truly nearly as educated.

 

[prophecy70]

Depends on the topic they are addressing.

If they are trying to preach a sermon on the Scriptures, I would listen, sift what is said, glean as gold that which was Scripturally solid and trash everything else.

If they were respected in the field of study, I would e compare how the views were alike and how they were different. I would take that which was agreeable with Scriptures and present that as truth, but that which departed from Scripture I would declare reasons why I could not support that thinking.

I have debated more than once the merits of OT prophecy and the messiah being the Christ with Jews and their teachers. Most listened and were willing to continue to share.

It helped to be non-confrontational and using (as did Christ) their own statements against them.

Admittedly, the most ignorant are those who in their education have placed political standing and authority upon the attainment of degrees.

The beginning of wisdom is to know God, both by virtue, by knowledge, by ... (1 Peter 1:5-7).

Education is good, and good education is better, but in my own experience with students, the best education was found in that struggling student who worked both physically and mentally to achieve the degree.

The hard working student usually built character, and practical experience that the student became not merely able to account for educational knowledge but one who knew how to stick to a responsibility until it was completed and God honoring.

That student had a resource of daily answers to earnest prayer and had first hand experience with what is meant by total reliance upon God, that others just did not experience. So, though possessing a degree, they were not truly nearly as educated.

I do respect John, I do listen to what he has to say. I Just don't see how his "education" matters in Interpretation of Matthew 24.
If thats my ignorance, then so be it. Ill admit it.

I certainly would have much to learn from him, and everyone on here. But Im only saying in the sense of the Discourse.

 

[prophecy70]

Easy. (1) My argument is about a specific passage which has genos, which often means "race." (2) Genea is a different word with a different range of meaning.

Oops. I see that Matt. 24:34 has genea. I'll get back to you on this. Have to go.

Isn't that exactly what I said?????

Use race in any other place Genea is used.

Genos is better used as race to avoid confusion.

Then you refuted me with

Here on this thread I see you acting like a Greek scholar or teacher (genos vs. genea? Really?). So as a genuine Greek teacher and Bible translator, I'll just let you wander on your own path.

and now you are saying

Genos often means Race, and Genea is a different word with different range of meanings.

UM!!!?

 

[John of Japan]

Isn't that exactly what I said?????

Then you refuted me with

and now you are saying

Genos often means Race, and Genea is a different word with different range of meanings.

UM!!!?

Um, no, that's not how it went down.

 

[John of Japan]

If I have to admit ignorance, do you have to admit boastfulness?

I have not boasted on this thread, unless you believe that simply giving one's qualifications is boasting. If you believe that, you had better never give anyone a resume for a new job, or you would be boasting.

 

[John of Japan]

Its not a Greek issue, Its a interpretation issue.

It is impossible to completely interpret the NT without the Greek, so your statement is a non sequitur.

 

[prophecy70]

Um, no, that's not how it went down.

How did it go down then?
Its what I said about Genos and Genea

I have not boasted on this thread, unless you believe that simply giving one's qualifications is boasting. If you believe that, you had better never give anyone a resume for a new job, or you would be boasting.

wasn't accusing you of this.
And I already admitted my lack of scholarly education of Greek, but that seems to be repetitive.

It is impossible to completely interpret the NT without the Greek, so your statement is a non sequitur.

You just spent a whole post refuting what I said with the wrong word, and you know the Greek.

I do not need to know any Greek to understand the Olivet Discourse, Its not a language issue in this passage. If it were, you shouldn't have to give your qualifications, you should be able to completely destroy me in this. And yet, I am unpersuaded.

 

[prophecy70]

I take you seriously too. I am frustrated because I have such limited time on the Internet. I am currently staying with my Luddite ma-in-law who does not have Internet.

BTW, we are hopefully embarking soon on our next foreign teaching assignment. It will be good to be in a place where I can get involved here again.

I am looking forward to this after reading your old posts!

 

[robycop3]

We are right there on the same page.

Interestingly enough, I've been looking at my Greek lexicons, and have yet to find one that has "generation" for genea, but they all have "race," including my Greek-Japanese one. This is one word where the translators lag behind the lexicographers.

Speaking of "race" -

On another site, I'm in discussion with a gang that says today's Jews are not really Jews, but are Ashkenazi or Mongols. I believe that's quite absurd, given that people's undisputable, well-documented history since 70 AD. No other distinct people in history has endured such abuse & persecution as the Jews have, and still remained a distinct people.

preterists just cannot accept the fact that their perception of Jesus' words was wrong, & that the eschatological events Jesus prophesied have simply not yet happened, and preterism is incorrect.

 

[robycop3]

That's presumably because your lexicons look at the word in isolation, whereas the translators look at genea in context.

So, how do you justify keeping the "generation" translation when the prophesied events did NOT occur during that generation?

 

[robycop3]

Its not a Greek issue, Its a interpretation issue. I do not see any reason to use race in any of the verses you showed me. Am I disagreeing about the greek word? No, obviously you know greek and I do not.
Remember about the Judaism thing, you told me they were wrong, and deny Jesus. Why are they wrong? They know Hebrew fluently and they understand the Torah.

So I do not see how the Rabbis can be wrong at all,if it was just a language thing. Im not denying the fact the actual word can mean something else.

this generation will not pass until all these things happen correct?

No knowledge of greek can translate that "Race" unless you have to have a preconceived idea that them "things" did not happen yet, thus changing the whole context of the passage, Because Generation doesn't fit, it would render the whole chapter a lie.

In context, I read a Judgment coming, like the OT passages, paralleled in Luke, about the destruction of the temple, in the Generation Jesus was speaking to, that In History, is recorded, and Did happen, in Context, In that same Generation. No amount of Greek would change that.

Well, that generation DID pass without those things occurring, and, as Jesus is always 100% correct, it must be YOUR perception of His words that's incorrect.

 

[John of Japan]

How did it go down then?
Its what I said about Genos and Genea

Go back and read it. I was very clear.

wasn't accusing you of this.

Yes you were. If you weren't, you really need to think and post more carefully.

You just spent a whole post refuting what I said with the wrong word, and you know the Greek.

I fully admit that I discussed the wrong Greek word. That does not change the facts of the passage. I'm going to discuss genea in another post.

I do not need to know any Greek to understand the Olivet Discourse, Its not a language issue in this passage. If it were, you shouldn't have to give your qualifications, you should be able to completely destroy me in this. And yet, I am unpersuaded.

I have yet to persuade you of a single thing that I know of, so this does not surprise me.

 

[John of Japan]

Okay, I openly admit that I made a mistake on Matt. 24:34, thinking without checking that the word there translated "generation" was the Greek genos, but it's really a synonym, genea.

Here is the definition of genea from the above-mentioned Gingrich's lexicon (leaving out all the references): "clan, race kind; perh. nation. Generation, contemporaries. Age, period of time. Perh. family or origin" (p. 41). Other lexicons have a very similar entry. Also, as with genos, there is a much wider range of meaning than the English "generation," putting to the lie the idea that the Greek doesn't help us in Matt. 24:34. It actually expands the need for interpretation.

I was surprised to see, contrary to what I thought (and may have posted here), that genea has the meaning of "race." So really, it is quite all right to translate it in Matt. 24:34 as "race" rather than "generation." It has a more subtle nuance: all of those born to an original ancestor. So the nuance here is that the "race" in the verse is specifically Jews, who were descended from Jacob, rather than other Mid-easterners.

 

[prophecy70]

Okay, I openly admit that I made a mistake on Matt. 24:34, thinking without checking that the word there translated "generation" was the Greek genos, but it's really a synonym, genea.

Here is the definition of genea from the above-mentioned Gingrich's lexicon (leaving out all the references): "clan, race kind; perh. nation. Generation, contemporaries. Age, period of time. Perh. family or origin" (p. 41). Other lexicons have a very similar entry. Also, as with genos, there is a much wider range of meaning than the English "generation," putting to the lie the idea that the Greek doesn't help us in Matt. 24:34. It actually expands the need for interpretation.

I was surprised to see, contrary to what I thought (and may have posted here), that genea has the meaning of "race." So really, it is quite all right to translate it in Matt. 24:34 as "race" rather than "generation." It has a more subtle nuance: all of those born to an original ancestor. So the nuance here is that the "race" in the verse is specifically Jews, who were descended from Jacob, rather than other Mid-easterners.

Where else is Genea "better" translated race?

Matthew 24

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation"
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Who is the "You"?

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Who is fleeing to the mountains and why if this is in modern times, and why would that matter?

17 Let no one on the housetop, go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers, 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath

If this is modern why does it matter if "who ever you think has to flee" happens on winter or the sabbath?


I