Christology and Preterism Part 2

[prophecy70]

I have yet to persuade you of a single thing that I know of, so this does not surprise me.

I have not heard good arguments in favor of something else, You probably could Teach me a wealth of information that I do not know, This is do not doubt.

 

[John of Japan]

Where else is Genea "better" translated race?

Possible places in Matthew alone include: 3:7 (definitely, in light of v. 9), 12:34 & 41-42, 23:33 & 36, and of course 24:34.

Matthew 24

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation"
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Who is the "You"?

The disciples of Jesus, of course.

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Who is fleeing to the mountains and why if this is in modern times, and why would that matter?

Disciples in the Tribulation period. Obviously you've never lived in the mountains. Ancient times or modern times, there are many more places to hide than on the plain.

17 Let no one on the housetop, go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers, 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath

If this is modern why does it matter if "who ever you think has to flee" happens on winter or the sabbath?

Why in the world would it not matter? I don't see a difference here either between modern and ancient times. And you must have never lived in a cold place. The cold makes it difficult to flee in times ancient and modern.

 

[Covenanter]

Okay, I openly admit that I made a mistake on Matt. 24:34, thinking without checking that the word there translated "generation" was the Greek genos, but it's really a synonym, genea.

Here is the definition of genea from the above-mentioned Gingrich's lexicon (leaving out all the references): "clan, race kind; perh. nation. Generation, contemporaries. Age, period of time. Perh. family or origin" (p. 41). Other lexicons have a very similar entry. Also, as with genos, there is a much wider range of meaning than the English "generation," putting to the lie the idea that the Greek doesn't help us in Matt. 24:34. It actually expands the need for interpretation.

I was surprised to see, contrary to what I thought (and may have posted here), that genea has the meaning of "race." So really, it is quite all right to translate it in Matt. 24:34 as "race" rather than "generation." It has a more subtle nuance: all of those born to an original ancestor. So the nuance here is that the "race" in the verse is specifically Jews, who were descended from Jacob, rather than other Mid-easterners.

Thank you. I understand perfectly now. Translation is a matter of rendering the original language into English in accordance with the meaning we want to convey, according to the translator's interpretation of the context.

I used to think translation was rendering the original language into sensible English before interpretation. That, of course, is why we have discussion about interpretation.

I'm happy to have helped you in guiding you to the actual Greek word we've been discussing. I'd hate you to have gone on thinking "genos has been wrongly translated as generation."

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you. I understand perfectly now. Translation is a matter of rendering the original language into English in accordance with the meaning we want to convey, according to the translator's interpretation of the context.

I used to think translation was rendering the original language into sensible English before interpretation. That, of course, is why we have discussion about interpretation.

I'm happy to have helped you in guiding you to the actual Greek word we've been discussing. I'd hate you to have gone on thinking "genos has been wrongly translated as generation."

Actually, most times interpretation through exegesis must be part of the translation effort. If the translator doesn't understand the passage, how can he translate it correctly? It is a myth that translation can take place without interpretation. For just one example of many, exegeting John 1:1 correctly according to the original grammar gives us the correct translation as opposed to the Watchtower version.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, most times interpretation through exegesis must be part of the translation effort. If the translator doesn't understand the passage, how can he translate it correctly? It is a myth that translation can take place without interpretation. For just one example of many, exegeting John 1:1 correctly according to the original grammar gives us the correct translation as opposed to the Watchtower version.

The trick is to interpret any scripture well enough to give across what the original and intended meaning, but without adding that that ones own understanding in addition!

 

[prophecy70]

Well, that generation DID pass without those things occurring, and, as Jesus is always 100% correct, it must be YOUR perception of His words that's incorrect.

The prophecy is fulfilled, please read this robycop3

 

[prophecy70]

Why in the world would it not matter? I don't see a difference here either between modern and ancient times. And you must have never lived in a cold place. The cold makes it difficult to flee in times ancient and modern.

How could you escape the second coming and why would anyone want to?

This is clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, Im not fleeing to Judea anytime soon.

Live somewhere cold? I live in upstate NY, average 5-6 feet snow a year!

 

[prophecy70]

Possible places in Matthew alone include: 3:7 (definitely, in light of v. 9), 12:34 & 41-42, 23:33 & 36, and of course 24:34.

Matthew 3:7 Doesn't have the word Genea in it .
Neither does 12:34
nor 23:33

And I don't see how anything other then the present generation is implied in the other verses.

 

[John of Japan]

Matthew 3:7 Doesn't have the word Genea in it .
Neither does 12:34
nor 23:33

And I don't see how anything other then the present generation is implied in the other verses.

Actually, you are right, the word in those verses is gennema, from the same root. Mea culpa. I think I can blame it on my search engine.

As for the other verses, give me reasons for your disagreement. In particular, it is very clear to me that 12:41-42 is talking about race in the genea sense, for which we have not complete equivalence English word. The Jews and Ninevites and Ethiopians were different races, period and end of story.

 

[John of Japan]

How could you escape the second coming and why would anyone want to?

This is clearly a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, Im not fleeing to Judea anytime soon.

No, the context is clearly the abomination of desolation, which the Antichrist will accomplish. You are entirely free to disagree about the Antichrist, but what you can't do is fault me for my interpretation, which is literal. To deny the coming of the Antichrist, you must interpret allegorically.

Live somewhere cold? I live in upstate NY, average 5-6 feet snow a year!

Then you should know what it's like to flee in winter. As for us, we're in WI, but we lived in Asahikawa, Hokkaido, Japan, for many years. Our town got about 20 feet of snow a year. NY is wimpy.

 

[prophecy70]

No, the context is clearly the abomination of desolation, which the Antichrist will accomplish. You are entirely free to disagree about the Antichrist, but what you can't do is fault me for my interpretation, which is literal. To deny the coming of the Antichrist, you must interpret allegorically.

Then you should know what it's like to flee in winter. As for us, we're in WI, but we lived in Asahikawa, Hokkaido, Japan, for many years. Our town got about 20 feet of snow a year. NY is wimpy.

To deny is the antichrist is a more natural interpretation. You need to add a 2000 year gap in a prophecy of 490 years. And then, bring that into Matthew 24 ignoring the parallel chapter in Luke.

Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

talking about race in the genea sense, for which we have not complete equivalence English word. The Jews and Ninevites and Ethiopians were different races, period and end of story.

Matthew 12:41
"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.


The men of Nineveh will stand up with "Current Generation" Because the People at Nineveh repented Over Jonah And the Current Generation "Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him......(Matthew 12:38) does not repent over something greater then Jonah (Christ)

Same with Verse 42.

The whole point here is the current generation, not some timeless meaning of the "Race of jews" rejecting Christ.

Only ONE generation rejected the actual living Christ. The generation he came to earth to!

 

[prophecy70]

fault me for my interpretation, which is literal.

Give me one literal verse, of a future antichrist sitting in a rebuilt temple for 7 years.

whats more literal?

daniel 9:24
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

490 years or 2490++++++ years.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:30 AM Pacific.

 

[robycop3]

Where else is Genea "better" translated race?

Matthew 24

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation"
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Who is the "You"?

The "you" is whoever sees or is part of those events. remember, when speaking those words, Jesus said, "LET THE READER UNDERSTAND".

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Who is fleeing to the mountains and why if this is in modern times, and why would that matter?

17 Let no one on the housetop, go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers, 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath

If this is modern why does it matter if "who ever you think has to flee" happens on winter or the sabbath?


I

It still matters quite a bit, even today. Case in point: The "island-hopping" campaign of WW2. The Allies bypassed many enemy outposts they didn't consider it essential to neutralize. Same for the recent wars. While Mosul was conquered, several nearby towns were untouched as, while being occupied by the enemy, no hostile activity was coming from them.

And remember, activity in the Jewish-controlled areas of Jerusalem is greatly restricted on the Sabbath.

 

[robycop3]

Give me one literal verse, of a future antichrist sitting in a rebuilt temple for 7 years.

whats more literal?

daniel 9:24
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

490 years or 2490++++++ years.

Rev. 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

 

[prophecy70]

Rev. 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

In no way what so ever is that a literal verse. Try again.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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