Christ's Redemption and Atonement

[Amy.G]

Salvation isn't applied apart from faith. But you don't want to say that the sacrifice of Christ did not in itself secure salvation, do you?

Is your salvation secure if you don't have faith? Christ's work is complete. But your salvation is only secure if you believe. Christ has done the work whether one believes (has faith in it) or not. That is why it is said that Christ died for all. It is only effective for those who believe. The blood has been shed, but it must be applied through faith.

Christ's work is complete in itself. Our faith does not serve as something that makes his work effective. It serves only as the vehicle or instrument through which we receive his completed and effective work.

Isn't that what I've been saying?

 

[swaimj]

I honestly in almost 15 years of being a Christian have never heard such a statement nor have I ever percieved such a distinction from Scripture. How such a distinction can be made I am not sure. Now this is just my lack of study in the intricacies of the debate.

RB, the quoted statement is commonly used by many who claim to be calvinist. John MacArthur uses it as does his internet bouncer Phil Johnson. R.C. Sproul uses this statement as well. I am aware that James White, in his book The Potter's Freedom rejects this statement as an accurate or helpful explanation of calvinism. I will say this about calvinists who accept the statement, or some version of it, it is certainly interesting to say that the atonement is "sufficient for all" and still refer to it as limited.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB, the quoted statement is commonly used by many who claim to be calvinist. John MacArthur uses it as does his internet bouncer Phil Johnson. R.C. Sproul uses this statement as well. I am aware that James White, in his book The Potter's Freedom rejects this statement as an accurate or helpful explanation of calvinism. I will say this about calvinists who accept the statement, or some version of it, it is certainly interesting to say that the atonement is "sufficient for all" and still refer to it as limited.

Ok, I think you do not mean the statement you quoted in this post. lol What statement are you referring to? Allen's?

 

[swaimj]

Thus the Atonement is unlimited in extent but limited in redemption.

RB, this is the statement with which you opened the thread and commented on, the comment that I quoted in my post. The statement above is often used by calvinists such as MacArthur and Sproul.

 

[Outsider]

Thus the Atonement is unlimited in extent but limited in redemption.

This is the way I view this statement: The blood saves (unlimited), it is applied by faith (limited).
When God poured out His wrath in Egypt, only the blood on the door kept them safe. Anyone who believed God, applied the blood to the door. If they applied anything else, it would not have saved them or if they said "I believe and/or have faith" but failed to do what was required, they would not have been spared. Only the blood saved them. This made the atonement unlimited in its extent, but limited in its application.

 

[Outsider]

1. One what Scriptural basis do you make the distinction between Christ's atonement and His redemption?
I feel His atonement was unlimited (All) and His redemption is for all who believe. He will redeem all who believe. A good scripture is 1 Tim 4:10.

2. Explain how an Atonement, in our case the blood of Jesus Christ, can exceed the extent of the Redemption? Let add some clarification. The object of Redemption must be by your limitation, believers. This is that which was purchased by the blood (atonement) of Christ. At the risk of sounding irreverant, did Christ over-pay for the purchased possession? You see then my dilemma. How can the payment exceed what was purchased?
He purchased everything. He paid for all sin. He applies it to whom He chooses. He chooses to give it to those who ask in faith. Example: If I am in sole control of the money at my house, I am free to distribute it any way I choose. I will not withhold it from my family, but I may require them to ask me for it. If they don't ask, I don't give. If they do ask, I will freely give it.

3. How does your distinction reconcile with the fact that Christ came to establish a New Covenant with His people? In other words, if the Atonement is universal, and a the blood of Christ IS the blood of the New Covenant, then what has been established with those who finally perish?
Christ established a covenant with believers.

This is the way I see it in scripture.

 

[russell55]

Is your salvation secure if you don't have faith?

I'm not saved at all if I don't have faith, but that is not because my salvation depends on my faith.

It is not my faith that makes my salvation secure, but Christ's work. Christ "secured eternal redemption." The security of my salvation is grounded completely in the finished work of Christ.

Christ's work is complete. But your salvation is only secure if you believe.

My salvation is secure because God delivered up his son for me, and with his son he will freely give me all things. If Christ died for me and is at the right hand of God making intercession for me, then I cannot be condemned. That's where scripture grounds the security of my salvation. (Romans 8)

Christ has done the work whether one believes (has faith in it) or not. That is why it is said that Christ died for all.

Why do you think "all" means everyone without exception rather than everyone without distinction?

It is only effective for those who believe.

Does the effectiveness of Christ's work on my behalf depend on my faith? Is Christ's work ineffective for those who don't believe?

 

[russell55]

This is the way I view this statement: The blood saves (unlimited), it is applied by faith (limited).
When God poured out His wrath in Egypt, only the blood on the door kept them safe. Anyone who believed God, applied the blood to the door.

Yes, I agree.

This made the atonement unlimited in its extent, but limited in its application.

But wasn't the passover sacrifice only done by Israelites? Wasn't it limited to them? And didn't all the Israelites apply the blood to the door? Weren't all the firstborn sons of Israel saved in this way?

In other words, wasn't the extent of the passover sacrifice and the application of the passover sacrifice exactly the same? Was there anyone for whom the sacrifice was made who wasn't saved by it?

 

[Amy.G]

I'm not saved at all if I don't have faith, but that is not because my salvation depends on my faith.

It is not my faith that makes my salvation secure, but Christ's work. Christ "secured eternal redemption." The security of my salvation is grounded completely in the finished work of Christ.


My salvation is secure because God delivered up his son for me, and with his son he will freely give me all things. If Christ died for me and is at the right hand of God making intercession for me, then I cannot be condemned. That's where scripture grounds the security of my salvation. (Romans 8)

Why do you think "all" means everyone without exception rather than everyone without distinction?

Does the effectiveness of Christ's work on my behalf depend on my faith? Is Christ's work ineffective for those who don't believe?

It is Christ's work and faith that brings salvation.

Christ died once for all, but only those who believe will be saved. Only those who apply the blood through faith will be saved. Just as the Hebrews had to apply the blood to the doors to be saved from death. God did not apply the blood Himself. It was up to each household to apply the blood to the door. God does the same today. He has made a way, but WE have to apply the blood through faith in Christ.

 

[nunatak]

I am getting confused. I thought salvation was BY grace THROUGH faith.

I did not think salvation was BY faith.

I do realize that we are justified by faith.

 

[Amy.G]

I am getting confused. I thought salvation was BY grace THROUGH faith.

I did not think salvation was BY faith.

I do realize that we are justified by faith.

That's what I said.

He has made a way, but WE have to apply the blood through faith in Christ.

We are saved by grace.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


We are justified by grace through the redemption and through faith.

 

[nunatak]

Amy, I just don't get the whole apply the blood thing. Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I just don't get the whole apply the blood thing. Can you elaborate on this?

It means to have faith in the shed blood of Christ for the remission of your sins and to receive eternal life.

Just as the high priest had to apply the blood to the altar, Jesus is our high priest and has taken His blood to the true altar of God. We receive it through faith.

 

[Outsider]

Originally Posted by russell55
But wasn't the passover sacrifice only done by Israelites? Wasn't it limited to them? And didn't all the Israelites apply the blood to the door? Weren't all the firstborn sons of Israel saved in this way?
As far as I can tell, you are correct. The Bible doesn't specify if the Egyptians were told or not. If they were told, I doubt if they would have done it. In fear of being punished or unbelief.

In other words, wasn't the extent of the passover sacrifice and the application of the passover sacrifice exactly the same? Was there anyone for whom the sacrifice was made who wasn't saved by it?
I would have to agree that the extent and application of this event may have only been for Israel. Again, I am led to believe that to be the case. The question we have to ask ourselves today is: Are some left out of this today or not?

I view this as a shadow of today. The only difference being that God instucted Moses to tell Israel to apply the blood. Jesus instructed the Apostles to spread the gospel to all nations. From my view point, that makes the extent for all.

Just my thoughts brother. Good discussion and God bless.

 

[russell55]

It is Christ's work and faith that brings salvation.

Oh, I really have to disagree with this! Our faith does not bring salvation. Can you find anywhere in scripture where it says faith brings salvation? It says salvation is through faith, but it never says faith is on account of or because of faith.

The way you've worded this makes it sound as if Christ's work of salvation is ineffective until we join our faith with it, and that we make his work effective by producing faith. Is that what you believe?

Christ died once for all, but only those who believe will be saved.

The "once for all" in "Christ died once for all", BTW, is "once for all time."

Only those who apply the blood through faith will be saved.

Where does it say we apply the blood through faith? I've never heard that phrase before.

Just as the Hebrews had to apply the blood to the doors to be saved from death. God did not apply the blood Himself. It was up to each household to apply the blood to the door.

It was up to the elders to sacrifice the lamb and the heads of the households to apply the blood. I'd think that the parallel work in the new covenant is indeed done by God. God sacrificed the Son and the Holy Spirit applies Christ's sacrifice to us (or better yet, the Holy Spirit unites us with Christ).

The members of the household had the blood applied on their behalf and they simply stayed inside the house where they would be safe. That, I'd think, is the more apt parallel to the role of faith in our salvation. They trusted, you might say, in what had been done for them by their representatives. Their faith was receptive, trusting in what had already been done for them.

Another point: Wasn't everyone on whose behalf the passover sacrifice was made saved by it? Yes, they had to be obedient to God's commands, but wasn't the whole nation obedient so that everyone for whom the sacrifices were made who was delivered by the passover sacrifice?

God does the same today. He has made a way, but WE have to apply the blood through faith in Christ.

Christ has shed his blood for us and we rest in it. We receive the salvation accomplished for us by Christ's work by resting in what he has done for us.

 

[Outsider]

Originally Posted by nunatak
I thought salvation was BY grace THROUGH faith.
We are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ.
We trust the works that Christ done on the cross and not our own works.

I did not think salvation was BY faith.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

I do realize that we are justified by faith.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Hi nunatak,
We are saved by God's grace. Salvation is given to us by His grace. It is the Lord who justifies us. In short, it is all God. It is our responsibility to trust in the works of Christ. To believe that He is the Son of God and that He died for our sins and was raised from the dead. When the object of our faith is Christ and Christ alone, God freely saves us and justifies us.

This is the way I have found it to be anyway. Many blessings!

 

[russell55]

I view this as a shadow of today.

Me too. I just see the parallels a little differently than you do, perhaps.

The only difference being that God instucted Moses to tell Israel to apply the blood. Jesus instructed the Apostles to spread the gospel to all nations. From my view point, that makes the extent for all.

This is a good point. And I do agree with you that the command is to spread the gospel to everyone. That is, perhaps, where I see the parallel between the passover and New Covenant salvation breaking down. In the passover, only the nation Israel was given the instructions, whereas now, God commands all people everywhere to repent.

I'm not sure that makes the extent of the atonement universal, however. I think the parallel with the passover as to extent and application still holds. For one thing, the sacrifice on the day of atonement seems to have also been effective for everyone on whose behalf it was made, and the picture in Hebrews 2 of Christ as priest has him sacrificing the sacrifice of atonement on behalf of "the people" or "his brothers" which I take, in context, to be "the many sons brought to glory", "those who are sanctified" or "the children God has given me".

Just my thoughts brother. Good discussion and God bless.

The Russell in my screen name is a surname. I'm a sister. Sorry to be confusing like that.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB, this is the statement with which you opened the thread and commented on, the comment that I quoted in my post. The statement above is often used by calvinists such as MacArthur and Sproul.

I have not seen them use it. Could you share what you have read or where you have seen it? I would like to read their use of it. Thanks.

 

[swaimj]

Sproul uses it in his book Willing to Believe

I have seen Phil Johnson defend the idea on his website "Pyromaniacs"

 

[Outsider]

The Russell in my screen name is a surname. I'm a sister. Sorry to be confusing like that.

Many appologies sister. I am very sorry.

I'm not sure that makes the extent of the atonement universal, however. I think the parallel with the passover as to extent and application still holds. For one thing, the sacrifice on the day of atonement seems to have also been effective for everyone on whose behalf it was made, and the picture in Hebrews 2 of Christ as priest has him sacrificing the sacrifice of atonement on behalf of "the people" or "his brothers" which I take, in context, to be "the many sons brought to glory", "those who are sanctified" or "the children God has given me".

I completely understand what you are saying and I can rejoice in it. I am a former TULIP subscriber but have found myself not subscribing lately - :laugh:

There are many scriptures to explore to gain complete understanding of the issue. At this point, I am convinced that He died for all. This makes the extent universal in my personal theology. If the intent was for all, then the application is available for all.
Many blessings.... Sister!!!!