Christ's Redemption and Atonement

[Amy.G]

Oh, I really have to disagree with this! Our faith does not bring salvation. Can you find anywhere in scripture where it says faith brings salvation? It says salvation is through faith, but it never says faith is on account of or because of faith.

I never said that salvation is "because" of faith. Faith is part of salvation though, is it not? Can a person be saved apart from faith? Did Christ lay His life down and then say "that's it, you're saved, you don't need any faith"?

The way you've worded this makes it sound as if Christ's work of salvation is ineffective until we join our faith with it, and that we make his work effective by producing faith. Is that what you believe?

How are you saved if faith is not required? Salvation=Christ's work+our faith. I don't see how you can get around that.

Jhn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The "once for all" in "Christ died once for all", BTW, is "once for all time."

I have never heard that "all" meant "time".

Where does it say we apply the blood through faith? I've never heard that phrase before.

How else do we receive the blood if it is not through faith?

It was up to the elders to sacrifice the lamb and the heads of the households to apply the blood. I'd think that the parallel work in the new covenant is indeed done by God. God sacrificed the Son and the Holy Spirit applies Christ's sacrifice to us (or better yet, the Holy Spirit unites us with Christ).

So, we don't need faith?

The members of the household had the blood applied on their behalf and they simply stayed inside the house where they would be safe. That, I'd think, is the more apt parallel to the role of faith in our salvation. They trusted, you might say, in what had been done for them by their representatives. Their faith was receptive, trusting in what had already been done for them.

And we trust in what Christ has done. That's faith. But if you don't trust in Christ, you will not be saved.

Another point: Wasn't everyone on whose behalf the passover sacrifice was made saved by it? Yes, they had to be obedient to God's commands, but wasn't the whole nation obedient so that everyone for whom the sacrifices were made who was delivered by the passover sacrifice?

Does scripture say that the whole nation of Israel was obedient? That would certainly be the first time for that. :laugh:

How about the example of the serpent on a pole.

Num 21:6 So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live."
Num 21:9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
Jesus used this as an example of what He would do. He would be lifted up on a pole and everyone who had been bitten (by sin) could look at Him (have faith in Him) and live.

It wasn't enough that the serpent be lifted up, the people had to look at it.
This is God's way. I did not make this up.

Christ has shed his blood for us and we rest in it. We receive the salvation accomplished for us by Christ's work by resting in what he has done for us.

We receive salvation by putting our faith in Christ. Maybe you are using the word "resting" as a synonym for faith?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Sproul uses it in his book Willing to Believe

I have seen Phil Johnson defend the idea on his website "Pyromaniacs"

Thanks. I am not going to go searching for it. If you have a link for the Pyromaniacs reference, it would be appreciated.

 

[swaimj]

Here it is: http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/articles/nature_of_the_atonement.pdf

The quote is on page ten.

 

[webdog]

Oh, I really have to disagree with this! Our faith does not bring salvation. Can you find anywhere in scripture where it says faith brings salvation? It says salvation is through faith, but it never says faith is on account of or because of faith.

I think you are playing semantics. We are saved when we have faith in Christ. However you want to word it so that this is the true meaning of salvation is fine.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Here it is: http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/articles/nature_of_the_atonement.pdf

The quote is on page ten.

Can you explain how page 10 supports the idea of an unlimited atonement in its extent?

Add-in: On page 12 he defines the debate between the Arminian/Non-cal/universal atonement and the Calvinist view. Begins with "So the real debate..."

 

[swaimj]

RB, apparently you missed the quote I am referring to on page 10. Here it is: "So when we say Christ's death was a sufficient atonement for the sins of the whole word but it's efficient only to save the elect we are affirming what the cannons of the Synod of Dordt explicitly state: "that the death of Christ was of infinite value and dignity"--that's their words".

RB, this statement agrees with Allan's statement that is the topic of this thread and with which you opened this thread. You said you were unfamiliar with any calvinist holding such a view though you have studied it for 15 years. Seems like a glaring omission on your part because Phil Johnson, among calvinists on the internet, is quite prominent.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB, apparently you missed the quote I am referring to on page 10. Here it is: "So when we say Christ's death was a sufficient atonement for the sins of the whole word but it's efficient only to save the elect we are affirming what the cannons of the Synod of Dordt explicitly state: "that the death of Christ was of infinite value and dignity"--that's their words".

RB, this statement agrees with Allan's statement that is the topic of this thread and with which you opened this thread. You said you were unfamiliar with any calvinist holding such a view though you have studied it for 15 years. Seems like a glaring omission on your part because Phil Johnson, among calvinists on the internet, is quite prominent.

I said I had not run accross the statement before. I have been a Christian for almost 15 years, not studying Calvinism for almost 15 years. Just to add some clarification there for you.

Also, I read through some of what Johnson wrote. I did not get the impression that he believes the same thing as Allen, otherwise Allen might as well then just say he is a Calvinist! Which Johnson in no uncertain terms claims this. What I too from pages 10-12 was that the atonement itself is unlimited in its efficacy, but limited in its extent. Had God purposed to include each and every one in it, then each and every one would be saved.

Did I miss something?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Ok, I read through most of the article. There is not much that I disagree with. In fact, there isn't anything I could say I do disagree with. Interestingly, I was studying 1 Timothy tonight and spent about an hour or so with it. I was looking at 4:10 in particular and came away with the understanding that Christ, in His death and ressurection, must have some benefit even to the non-elect, but salvation for the elect (believers). I emailed my pastor about this to get his thoughts as well, but it seems that I derived from the Scripture something similar to Johnson and many others besides. hahaha

I will continue to pray about this. The man Curt Daniel he mentions puts it that Calvinist should not say that Christ died only for the elect, but for the elect espeically. Johnson would prefer the words of 1 Tim 4:10, "He is the Savior of all men, specially of them that believe." I would prefer the words fo Scripture too.

 

[russell55]

I never said that salvation is "because" of faith. Faith is part of salvation though, is it not? Can a person be saved apart from faith? Did Christ lay His life down and then say "that's it, you're saved, you don't need any faith"?

Nope, no one is saved without faith.

But the question is this: Do we apply the atonement to ourselves by believing? Is our faith added to the atoning work of Christ in order to make it effective to save us?

Or is the faith itself through which we are saved a blood-bought gift to us? Is it, too, God's gift to us along with all the other fruits of the atonement?

Do you see the difference? Both views would say that salvation is necessary for salvation, but in one, it's our faith that makes the atonement effective; and in the other, it's the effectiveness of the atonement that causes the faith by which we are saved.

I don't think we can find any scripture that supports the idea that we apply the atonement by believing. Anything I can find that I think speaks to the application of the atonement indicates it is done by God.

Romans 5:10-11:

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? 5:11 Not only this, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation.

We were reconciled to God through Christ's death while we were enemies, and the application of this reconciliation (receiving the reconciliation) that comes to us now comes to us through God. The application of the reconciliation (or atonement) is God's work.

1 Corinthians 1:30:

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption....

We are in Christ Jesus by God's doing and it is by God's doing that Christ became redemption to us. The application of redemption, or better yet, our union with Christ, through which Christ became to us redemption, is God's work.

Ephesians 2:8:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...

The whole of the salvation process, which includes our faith, is a gift of God (or comes by his grace.) Anything that comes by grace comes through Christ's death.

In other places we're told that believing and repentance are gifts of God. If they are gifts, then they come through Christ's death.

How are you saved if faith is not required? Salvation=Christ's work+our faith. I don't see how you can get around that.

See above. Faith is required, but even our faith comes from Christ's work so that the equation is Salvation = Christ's work, which includes the gift of our faith.

I have never heard that "all" meant "time".

It doesn't. But the phrase "once for all" is a translation of one greek word that refers to time. It's translated "once" or "at once" or "all at once" or "once for all", meaning, then, in referrence to Christ's work, that it's done once, and never has to be repeated, unlike the priest's sacrifices, which were done "day after day."

How else do we receive the blood if it is not through faith?

The atonement is effective for us because God applies it to us, and the faith through which we are saved is a fruit of the application of the atonement to us, not something that we put with Christ's work to make the atonement effective for us.

Does scripture say that the whole nation of Israel was obedient? That would certainly be the first time for that. :laugh:

It seems that in this case they were all obedient. Anyway, the whole nation was delivered from Egypt.

Jesus used this as an example of what He would do. He would be lifted up on a pole and everyone who had been bitten (by sin) could look at Him (have faith in Him) and live.

It wasn't enough that the serpent be lifted up, the people had to look at it.
This is God's way. I did not make this up.

I don't disagree with any of this. I'm not saying that anyone is saved without looking to Christ. My point is that in the case of the sacrifice of the passover and the day of atonement in the Old Testament, the groups on whose behalf the sacrifice was made and the group for whom it was effective were equal. My point was in response to the argument that the OT sacrifices were not effective for the whole nation of Israel and then using that argument to say that Christ's death was likewise not effective for everyone on whose behalf it was made. I'm saying that the first part of the argument is mistaken, therefore the conclusion can't be drawn in that way.

We receive salvation by putting our faith in Christ. Maybe you are using the word "resting" as a synonym for faith?

I am. I was doing that because I think that's what faith in Christ is. It rests in Christ's work. It says, "I can do nothing, and so I trust in what has already done for me." It is not something added to Christ's work to make Christ's work effective, but rather, it's something that rests in the complete effectiveness of Christ's work.

 

[russell55]

I think you are playing semantics. We are saved when we have faith in Christ. However you want to word it so that this is the true meaning of salvation is fine.

I don't think it's just semantics. In everyday conversation, I'd just let it pass. But this is a theology discussion board. Quibbling over the details is what this place is for. That's how we learn here, isn't it? That's the iron sharpening iron, right?

And in the context of the whole conversation, I think my quibble and her response shed some light on the difference we have. Amy and I both believe that faith is necessary in our salvation, but we do seem to disagree on what is the exact role of our faith in our salvation.

 

[Allan]

I am very busy lately both at work and home so I'm not going to be able to be on here often. There is alot of question to me in here that I have declared on the BB in thread after thread - over and over and over again. I don't mind saying them again as needed but some that are asking have already been told though you might have forgotten.

Regarding this russell55:

I don't think we can find any scripture that supports the idea that we apply the atonement by believing.

I would have you look at Rom 3:25 which states though your usage of 'we' is inaccurate since it is God who applies not us:

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I'll come back and answer what I can as time allows me.

 

[Revmitchell]

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Amy.G]

Or is the faith itself through which we are saved a blood-bought gift to us? Is it, too, God's gift to us along with all the other fruits of the atonement?

Ok. I think I finally see what the problem is between us.
You are saying that God gives us faith.
I don't believe that. We all have faith and excercise it daily. I have faith (or trust) in car to start when I turn the key. If I didn't I wouldn't even try to start it. The question is, what is the object of our faith? I diisagree with your interpretation of:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The gift is not faith. The gift is salvation by grace apart from works.

I believe this is how the sentence reads.

I don't think we can find any scripture that supports the idea that we apply the atonement by believing. Anything I can find that I think speaks to the application of the atonement indicates it is done by God.

Jhn 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

You must eat of Christ's flesh and drink His blood. He does not do that for you. The fact that we have to partake of His flesh doesn't mean that we add to the work He has already done.

I try to cook healthy meals for my family, but if they choose not to eat it, they will go hungry. I do not force it into their mouths. The fact that they do eat it in no way adds to the work that I did to prepare it. They contributed nothing in the preparation of the meal. But in order for the food to do the job of supplying their nutrional needs, they must eat it.

Romans 5:10-11: We were reconciled to God through Christ's death while we were enemies, and the application of this reconciliation (receiving the reconciliation) that comes to us now comes to us through God. The application of the reconciliation (or atonement) is God's work.

The application comes through our faith. God does not have faith for us.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!

Christ came to His own, but they would not believe. They would not partake of His flesh. Why on earth would God not give them the gift of faith when they were the very ones that He came for?

In other places we're told that believing and repentance are gifts of God. If they are gifts, then they come through Christ's death.

I know of the verse that you claim is saying that "faith" is a gift from God, but I'm not familiar with one that says repentance is a gift from God. How can God repent for me?

The atonement is effective for us because God applies it to us, and the faith through which we are saved is a fruit of the application of the atonement to us, not something that we put with Christ's work to make the atonement effective for us.

You seem to be saying that we have faith after we are saved. If the atonement saves and the fruit of it is faith, then we do not need faith to be saved.

I don't disagree with any of this. I'm not saying that anyone is saved without looking to Christ. My point is that in the case of the sacrifice of the passover and the day of atonement in the Old Testament, the groups on whose behalf the sacrifice was made and the group for whom it was effective were equal.

I differ in that I believe the "group" Christ died for was ALL sinners, not just some.






I

 

[russell55]

Regarding this russell55:

.......your usage of 'we' is inaccurate since it is God who applies not us:

That's exactly my point, Alan. My challenge was to the statement made by someone else that it is we who apply the atonement to ourselves by believing. It isn't "we" who apply the atonement, but God. We receive it through faith, but God is the one doing the applying.

 

[russell55]

Ok. I think I finally see what the problem is between us.
You are saying that God gives us faith.
I don't believe that. We all have faith and excercise it daily.

Of course, but we don't all have faith in Christ. And when usually, when the Bible speaks of faith it means faith in Christ. It doesn't mean faith in our cars. Philippians 1:29, for one, tells us that believing in Christ's name—faith with Christ as the object—has been given to us in the same way that our suffering for him has.

I diisagree with your interpretation of:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The gift is not faith. The gift is salvation by grace apart from works.

I didn't say that "it" in "it is the gift of God" refers back to "faith" directly. I said it refers to being saved—the whole salvation process, which includes the faith that is the receptacle of our salvation.

The application comes through our faith. God does not have faith for us.

We recieve the reconciliation through our faith, but the application of that reconciliation comes through God. The verse says that.

I know of the verse that you claim is saying that "faith" is a gift from God, but I'm not familiar with one that says repentance is a gift from God. How can God repent for me?

Well, first of all, God doesn't repent for us. We repent for ourselves, but we repent because God gives us repentance. Here's one place where repentance is said to be a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2:24-24

And the Lord’s slave must not engage in heated disputes but be kind toward all, an apt teacher, patient, 2:25 correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth 2:26 and they will come to their senses and escape the devil’s trap where they are held captive to do his will.

Repentance is something God gives, as is knowledge of the truth. The hinge on which escaping the devil's trap turns is God's granting of repentance.

And I gave you another one that says that believing in Christ is given to us: Philippians 1:29.

You seem to be saying that we have faith after we are saved.

I believe that the application of the atonement to us and our faith are instantaneous. I believe that we are justified by faith, sanctified through faith, and kept through faith clear through to our salvation ready to be revealed in the last day. So all of that process of salvation is through faith, yet it is God's power that keeps us believing (1 Peter 1:5) God gives us faith and then keeps that faith alive so that we persevere to the end.

I differ in that I believe the "group" Christ died for was ALL sinners, not just some.

I believe there is some sense in which Christ died for everyone, but the saving intent of his death was for those who would believe. He did not intend to save those who would never believe.

You didn't comment on 1 Corinthians 1: 30 which says that it is by God's doing that we have been united with Christ, and that Christ redemption to us. That result—our being "in Christ Jesus" and him becoming our redemption—came "out of God".

 

[DavidK]

Limited Atonement

This is a difficult subject in Christian theology. Statements such as are seen in the sixth chapter of John and the ninth of Romans certainly show that God brings to Himself those whom He ordained to eternal life. Only the elect will be saved. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives to me shall come to me.." Romans 8:28-30 reveals the pattern of events - Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification. We do not understand how it is that both election and human responsibility can co-exist, but somehow they do. Statements like "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation " (Hebrews) show the need of the individual person in coming to Christ. A response is required, but it does not occur without divine assistance. The Holy Spirit convicts and draws a person to Christ, but in the mind of God, Who alone comprehends all this, that person was elected before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) to be saved. Someday, we may understand this better, when we share the glory of Jesus Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

Of course, but we don't all have faith in Christ. And when usually, when the Bible speaks of faith it means faith in Christ. It doesn't mean faith in our cars. Philippians 1:29, for one, tells us that believing in Christ's name—faith with Christ as the object—has been given to us in the same way that our suffering for him has.

I know that the bible speaks of faith in Christ. My point was the object of our faith is what saves. We are all born with the capability of believing. We are drawn by God, convicted of sin and we can respond in faith to what God reveals to us.

I didn't say that "it" in "it is the gift of God" refers back to "faith" directly. I said it refers to being saved—the whole salvation process, which includes the faith that is the receptacle of our salvation.

If the gift includes faith, then you are saying that God gives us faith as a gift. This is like that He believes for us.

We recieve the reconciliation through our faith, but the application of that reconciliation comes through God. The verse says that.

The application of the blood is done by God, but through our faith. We cannot be reconciled or saved without faith.

Well, first of all, God doesn't repent for us. We repent for ourselves, but we repent because God gives us repentance. Here's one place where repentance is said to be a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2:24-24

This statement is confusing to me.

I believe there is some sense in which Christ died for everyone, but the saving intent of his death was for those who would believe. He did not intend to save those who would never believe.

Those who do not believe will not be saved. Agree.

You didn't comment on 1 Corinthians 1: 30 which says that it is by God's doing that we have been united with Christ, and that Christ redemption to us. That result—our being "in Christ Jesus" and him becoming our redemption—came "out of God".

This whole section of scripture is speaking of the wisdom of God (Christ) versus the wisdom of the world.
In Christ alone is our wisdom, righteousness, justification, sanctification and redemption.

 

[Outsider]

Hi all,
Sometimes when we start picking apart words we end up a little distracted from the message we are truly saying. Its not a bad thing because we need to work on what to say and how we say things. Not to mention we sometimes say things that need to be corrected. I try to be careful of what I say and after I send a message, I read over it later and wish I would have worded it differently. With that being said, I think everyone will agree that only God saves. Him and Him alone. Nothing we do or say can save ourselves or help in the process.

God did reveal to us, in His Holy Word, who He chooses to save. He works everything according to the counsel of His own will and He saves whom ever He chooses. According to what I find in scripture, He chooses to sovereignly save those who believes in His Son. Not that our faith causes Him to save us, but that He saves us because He sovereignly chose to save them that put their faith in Christ. Apart from their works. Only the work of Christ is acceptable to God.

The Bible teaches me that it is not a certain amount of faith that is required (Before attacking this statement, please understand what I am saying). In other words, if faith could be measured in pounds, you have to have 100 lbs of faith. The amount required is all you have (Your whole heart, soul, mind and strength). When all your faith is in Christ, it leaves no room for salvation by works, it is all through faith and it is all of God. It is truly a gift, as we could not earn it or work for it. We trust in Christ and He supplies it and applies it. God's word tells us what we must do to recieve it and that is complete trust in His Son.

When I put all my faith in Christ, God saved me and gave me what I believe is saving faith. He gave it to me because He chose to save me. Before I was saved, my hope was that Christ would save me. Now my faith is that Christ has saved me (Saving faith), because of His love for me and the works He done for me on the cross. I rely on Him and trust in Him.

This is my view on the subject. I enjoy reading everyone's posts. Many blessings!!

 

[russell55]

I know that the bible speaks of faith in Christ. My point was the object of our faith is what saves. We are all born with the capability of believing.

We are all capable of believing in something, but we are not all capable of believing in Christ:

2 Corinthians 4:4:
...the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

We are drawn by God, convicted of sin and we can respond in faith to what God reveals to us.

Exactly. And that's the way God that faith is God's gift to us. He shows us "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" so that we trust him:

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

If the gift includes faith, then you are saying that God gives us faith as a gift. This is like that He believes for us.

No, see above. He gives us faith by "shining in our hearts". We believe for ourselves, but as a direct result of his shining in our hearts.

The application of the blood is done by God, but through our faith. We cannot be reconciled or saved without faith.

I agree with this.

I said:
Well, first of all, God doesn't repent for us. We repent for ourselves, but we repent because God gives us repentance. Here's one place where repentance is said to be a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2:24-24

You said:

This statement is confusing to me.

I'm not sure what it is that's confusing. The 2 Timothy passage says that God gives repentance "leading to a knowledge of the truth". That makes knowing the truth dependent on God's gift of repentance. I imagine it works in the same way the gift of faith works (and is probably the same thing as the gift of faith because faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin). God "shines in" or draws or whatever you want to call it, and sinners respond in repentance and faith. It's in that way that it's a gift. Our response of faith and repentence is completely dependent on God's activity in us, but the response is still ours.

This whole section of scripture is speaking of the wisdom of God (Christ) versus the wisdom of the world.
In Christ alone is our wisdom, righteousness, justification, sanctification and redemption.

It's not talking about how Christ is wisdom or righteousness or redemption in general, but how he became wisdom and righteousness, and redemption to us. It is speaking about how someone becomes "in Christ Jesus" so that Christ is their own wisdom and righteousness and redemption. What is it that causes us to be in Christ Jesus? What is it that makes Christ wisdom to us? What is it that makes Christ righteousness to us? What is it that makes him redemption to us? It is, according to this verse "out of God" or as my NASB puts it, "of God's doing." It does not depend on us; it depends on God. Yes, we have to have faith, but even our faith is dependent on God's work within us, since it is "of God's doing" that we see the wisdom of Christ.

 

[Allan]

We are all capable of believing in something, but we are not all capable of believing in Christ:

This is not a true statement - imo. We all are capable of believing in something and this includes Christ. However the belief or faith that we place in Christ is only when God, not man, reveals His truth to us. But this does not mean that all to who God reveals truth to will believe or come at His drawing.

2 Corinthians 4:4:
...the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

You're taking this beyond it's context. This does not mean that not all men can believe since the wording is specific that these whom Satan is currently blinding have already rejected the truth.. We know that man can not come to spiritual truth of or by himself but it must be revealed to him by God who will bring light through Christ Jesus to every man (John 1:9) and the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), that they might believe (John 3:15-17)

Exactly. And that's the way that faith is God's gift to us. He shows us "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" so that we trust him:

But not everyone comes whom the Father reveals such to. (Prov 1:23, (24) -33; Rom 10:21; MAt 23:37; Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12)

However, I will agree that faith is in a 'sense' a gift in that if it were not for God revealing truth to us that we might believe we would continue in sin. Therefore the gift maintains it's biblical point that Christ is the gift given that we might 'have faith' in Him. (the object of our faith that saves) So it is not a gift in the sense that God gave to us something (faith itself) that we did not already possess but that God gave us Christ (something we did not have) that our faith could be placed no longer in vain things which can not save but in that which God has revealed.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This verse does not negate that God revealed the same to others who rejected His truth. (These verses are for starters - Prov 1:23, (24) -33; Rom 10:21; MAt 23:37; Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:10-12)
The passage above simply speaks of believers who already received that light God sent forth due and nothing more. You're trying add to it what is not implied at all. This goes back to John 1:9 in which scripture states that Christ gives light to 'every' [single] man who comes into the world. You have taken this passage far beyond what it was intended to state contextually. You will note this is about those who have accepted or already rejected the truth of God's reveliation becasue verse 4 makes a very clear statement that these whom Satan is blinding alreayd have chosen not to believe. It states "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ,.." (NASB). Satan is not keeping them from seeing the light so to never see it, but that they are unbelieving and Satan is allowed to keep them from believing. We see this illistrated very well in Rom 1 in which scripture states that after their rejection of the truth God reveals in nature through His revelation and there it states - God gave them over [to their sin, desires, et..] and can also be seen in 2 Thes 2:10-12 regarding the gospel which is rejected. It is also seen with God hardening peoples heart who do not believe or better that reject Him and or His word.

No, see above. He gives us faith by "shining in our hearts". We believe for ourselves, but as a direct result of his shining in our hearts.

No you are in error for He does not 'give' us faith but the object for our faith. You are correct however in that our belief or placing of faith is a direct result of His shining our hearts - IF we will believe.

I agree with this.

I do to.

I said:
Well, first of all, God doesn't repent for us. We repent for ourselves, but we repent because God gives us repentance. Here's one place where repentance is said to be a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2:24-24

Sorry but this is another verse distorted for theological purposes.
God does not give repentence but it is refering to God allowing them to repent.
This passages is dealing with Christians who are in sin. The fact that God desires all men everywhere to repent and come to the knowledge of truth proves imfactically that God does genuinely give all sinners alike the opportunity to repent though not all come - however He knows all that are to come.
Thus repentence is only a gift in the same sense as faith is.

I'm not sure what it is that's confusing. The 2 Timothy passage says that God gives repentance "leading to a knowledge of the truth". That makes knowing the truth dependent on God's gift of repentance. I imagine it works in the same way the gift of faith works (and is probably the same thing as the gift of faith because faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin). God "shines in" or draws or whatever you want to call it, and sinners respond in repentance and faith. It's in that way that it's a gift. Our response of faith and repentence is completely dependent on God's activity in us, but the response is still ours.

Now here we are very similar. However not all will believe and repent becasue God has revealed spiritual truths to them through the light of revelation. (see verses already give above in previous answers)


Sorry gotta get back to work.. again I will try to get back to page one and go from there as time permits.

Keep up the good work Amy :thumbs: