Bob said --
However - in Romans 11 the point is made clearly that they are cast out of
the vine - and can only return if they "do not continue in unbelief". There is
no "other way".
Ray said -I agree with your statement and explanation coming out of Romans eleven.
Bob said --
Further - we are told in Hebrews 8 that the OT system of sacrifices ended. In
fact in Heb 7 we are told that with the change of the priesthood came a
change of the laws regarding sacrifices and role of priests - transferring it to
the ONE priest - our High Priest - Jesus Christ - in the Heavenly temple.
To argue for - earthly priests, earthly sacrifices After the death of Christ - is
to seek to reject the High Priestly work of Christ (the great antitype) and
return to the work of the system of "shadows" and "types" pointing forward
to the sacrifice of Christ.
Hebrews 10 states that "he put an end to sacrifices" by His death.
Ray-I agree that there is no other way to Heaven and salvation other than through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. But, 'when the fulness of the Gentiles comes into the kingdom, God is again going to deal with the Jewish people and nation.' [Romans 11:25-26]
Actually Romans 11 makes it very clear that God is STILL reaching out to Jews from the moment of the writing of Romans 11 to this very day. There has been no "weakening" of His position - it is only thier continued "unbelief" that causes the rift - then in Romans 11, and still to this day.
When Paul makes the point about "And in This way all Israel will be saved" he is speaking of the fact that "They are NOT all Israel that are children of the flesh". In order for "all Israel to come in" that part that is "not of the flesh" must be evangelized. Paul points out that the "natural branches" are those that are in EVEN BEFORE the push to evengelize "Israel that is NOT of the flesh". The "missing piece" is that part of Israel that is Not of the Flesh.
Paul himself represents that part of Israel already "in the vine" both of the flesh AND of the Promise. That part that preceeded the massive influx of the Gentiles.
Romans 11 is not a story about "The Gentile First AND THEN we will minister to the Jews". Rather the context is set in Romans 2 -"the Jew First AND THEN to the Gentiles". It is the bringing IN of the Gentiles that results in the saying in Romans 11 "And so in this way ALL Israel will be saved".
Ray --
You will see the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:7. Watch carefully!
In verse eight, the next verse, God says that then will be done with these covenants, by using the words, 'For finding fault with them.'
After His dealing with Gentiles in the church age, meaning now, He is going to introduce 'a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, meaning only the Jewish people.
Hebrews 8:
13 When He said, "" A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
He "has made" the first obsolete.
In Romans 8 and 9 - Paul makes it clear - the New Covenant was already in full force. And the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven had already begun. With that "change in priesthood" there was even then "a change in law" regarding sacrifices and officiating priests. (as we see in Romans 7).
Paul is not arguing "we are under the old Covenant and will continue to be under the old covenant until some future day when God will make a new Covenant with literal Israel of the flesh".
Rather Paul argues that He already changed the law regarding priests (see Heb 7) and He already made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
Notice that Paul argues that "We" are now under the New Covenant. The better Covenant. The one whereby sins are forgiven. In Heb 9-10 he points out that under the Old Covenant you had "animal blood" that "Can never take away sin" - but under the New Covenant we have the "blood of Christ".
Bob said --
Zechariah pointed to a scenario - prior to the rejection of Christ by the Jews
- whereby the Jews accepted their Messiah - That is a valid scenario
pre-cross and pre-rejection of Christ. They had at that time "a choice" of
futures.
Ray said -I agree with you in the above paragraph.
Bob said --
However the many texts already shown about the desolated planet earth
with "no man" - show clearly the state of the earth during the 1000 years -
when as Rev 19 predicts the "rest of mankind" are killed by Christ at His
appearing and the birds of all the earth feast on the corpses of the dead -
where there is nobody left to bury them. The saints have been raised as Rev
20 points out - and as 1Thess 4 points out - taken back to heaven - "That
where I am there you may be also" as Christ promised.
Ray said -the destruction of the earth as you referred to above will take place after the Millenimum, the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth as recorded in II Peter 3:10-12.
In the texts I gave - we find the following -
Corpses are strewn from one end of earth to the other with no one around to bury them.
There is "no man" - ie. mankind is not there on the planet.
Much of the land is "burning pitch".
There is no light of the moon or the sun or the stars - rather a cloud covers the entire planet.
Cities of the planet remain in ruin. Wild Animals roam the cities.
The hills and mountains move across the surface of the earth - as if its surface is much more molten unstable than it is today.
Ray said. --
That is why Jesus said in Revelation that the Great White Throne Judgment for sinners will be held not on earth or in Heaven, but a suspended place perhaps above where the earth was located.
Notice, 'And I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.' Revelation 20:11 is not John's flare for poetic license; in other words, John was not merely carelessly expressing words. He meant what he said.
That is a good point.
Lets look at the text.
Rev 20
must be released for a short time
.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
The resurrection of vs 4 where the souls of the righteous “came to Life” (as opposed to being alive while dead) – is the event that starts the 1000 year clock ticking. This is “the event” Paul sees in 1Thess 4 – the “First Resurrection” the Resurrection of the righteous. It is also clear that the “second death” has no power over those raised before the 1000 years.
There is “another resurrection” for the text says The Rest of the dead did not “Come To LIFE” until the 1000 years were completed.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
It is clear that the “Second resurrection” and the “second death” are related to each other. Those raised in the 2nd resurrection are subject to the “second death”. Notice that at the 2nd resurrection – at the end of the 1000 years – those raised “are on earth” and Satan goes to gather them “From the four corners of the earth”.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
This is interesting because these events take place on earth – up to and including fire coming down out of heaven and devouring all those wicked.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The reference to the lake of fire – is already mentioned in Rev 19 – and we see it before the 1000 years as well as after. It would appear that it too is on earth. Heaven and earth have both been referenced so far in the chapter – as though both exist before and after the 1000 years.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Here we notice again that it is the “sea” and the “Grave” that give up the dead – these are terms that would appear to apply to the earth. So also we see that the wicked are throne into the lake of fire – first mentioned in Rev 19 at the appearing of Christ prior to the 1000 years. (19:20)
But it is argued that vs 11 shows an absence of both heaven and earth even though language showing an existing heaven and earth is found in Rev 20 after the 1000 years. Certainly having earth and heaven flee away would show “they end” – so how can the sea be giving anything up – if there is no sea – because there is no earth? Part of the answer may be in the fact that Rev 21 shows us that the Earth is ended and the “new Earth” takes its place. Possibly the “earth fleeing away” is a reference to the end of the earth, but not necessarily and end that happens “before” Chapter 21. God is the one before whom earth flees away – but that event does not happen until chapter 21.
Or at least that is one possible solution.
Still - you make a good point about Earth fleeing away.
In Christ,
Bob
