Chuches/Pastors-How to support them?

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Methinks (love that old English) that those who are against PAYING the pastor for the ministry of the Word might also be against the whole concept of a PASTOR itself.

Usually they attack that position of the pastor as being unbiblical or untenable, then seek to go about the ministry without one.

A Bible Study group, all split from a GARBC church here, have asked me to help them form a church. BUT, they warn, they do not want ANY PASTOR telling them what to do or think. They will all just share in the pastor's position.

Antinomianism rears its ugly head in Wyoming. You can run but you can't hide!

Hi Bob. Thank you for your comments. I do believe in the legitimacy of the role of the pastor, provided the pastor meets the requirements of 1 Tim 3. If a pastor DID meet those requirements, the question of “compensation” would not even be an issue. It is only an issue because MOST pastors do not live up to the 1 Tim 3 standard (which would automatically disqualify them from being pastor in the first place).

I know of pastors who get “fat” off of the congregation and do VERY little by way of service. I know this is NOT true of every pastor (as Larry has correctly suggested in one of his earlier posts). But it IS true of many. I don’t understand why following Paul’s example of “no compensation” is so difficult to grasp. Apparently it is.

latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by HankD:
Hi Latter,

Dear latterrain perhaps for the sake of unity we should all leave this as a disagreement.

Psalm 133:1 {A Song of degrees of David.} Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

HankD

Hi HankD. Yes, I hear you.

latterrain77

[ August 01, 2002, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
I’m glad you agree that it is NOT necessary to be formally educated in “Theology school” to become a pastor in a church (John 7: 15). You have made a big leap, as it softens your earlier statement about “professional pastors” and brings you much closer to the "ALL" believers of 1 Cor. 9: 14. ANY believer fitting the 1 Tim 3 standard is qualified for the office of pastor.

I have not softened anything. I believe pastor's should be educated but that is not the point here. A pastor (whether educated or not) who proclaims teh gospel has a right to be paid for it. "Any believer" cannot be a pastor. Any male believer who meets the 1 Tim 3 standard can be a pastor and get paid for it. 1 Tim 3 says nothing about money per se, only about being greedy for money. That is a big difference.

BTW, I noticed you didn't answer my questions from my post above. Why not?

[ August 01, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

I have not softened anything. I believe pastor's should be educated but that is not the point here. A pastor (whether educated or not) who proclaims teh gospel has a right to be paid for it. "Any believer" cannot be a pastor. Any male believer who meets the 1 Tim 3 standard can be a pastor and get paid for it. 1 Tim 3 says nothing about money per se, only about being greedy for money. That is a big difference.

BTW, I noticed you didn't answer my questions from my post above. Why not?

John 7: 15 “And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?” (KJV)

John 7:15 “The Jews then were astonished, saying, "How has this man become learned, having never been educated?" (NASB).

You say that “pastors” should be formally educated. Accordingly, you must believe that JESUS himself was unqualified to be a pastor since he was formally UNEDUCATED (John 7: 15).
I did answer all of your questions. Pastors should NOT be compensated. Paul’s example IS the example, not a choice.

1 Tim 3 does NOT merely say a pastor shouldn't be “greedy for money.” It says a pastor should not be greedy for “FILTHY LUCRE.” Filthy lucre refers to dirty money, money received in a bad sense. It is curious that GREED and Filthy money are mentioned in a chapter that specifically refers to “pastors.” "Greed" is to be FOCUSED, eager, or desirous for money.

I wrote, and I quote; “ANY believer fitting the 1 Tim 3 standard is qualified for the office of pastor.” The 1 Tim 3 standard IS all male. Why did you imply that I said otherwise when I did not?

latterrain77

[ August 02, 2002, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Aki]

i have gone only through a few arguments, and i want to share my own:

1. pastors have the right to demand to its church support for living.

2. pastors do not have the right to demand support for a luxurious life.

3. but if the church would give it to him, it is fine.

4. if the church cannot support a pastor, the pastor can ask sister churches for support.

5. if no support is available, the pastor should work outside the church and earn his living while pastoring.

6. there are instances when a pastor must not ask support from his church for a certain moment, if doing it would hinder church growth. an example would be when the church is new and the concept of giving money to the pastor may look like more of a gimmick from the pastor. this would require discernment from the pastor.

7. financial support for pastors should be seen as support, and not as salary. the ministry is there for them to take care of, and not to earn a living from. in other words, the church does not pay him for his preachings and other works. it supports him as its pastor.

8. tithing is not for the church.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
You say that “pastors” should be formally educated. Accordingly, you must believe that JESUS himself was unqualified to be a pastor since he was formally UNEDUCATED (John 7: 15).

Nice jump there but that was not what I said. First, I said Pastors should be, not that they had to be. In fact, notice my exact words from the post above: A pastor (whether educated or not) who proclaims teh gospel has a right to be paid for it.

You put words in my mouth there. Second, Jesus was omniscient. What was he going to learn? We learn because there are things we don't know. YOu are really trying hard here but it doesn't fit the text.

I did answer all of your questions. Pastors should NOT be compensated. Paul’s example IS the example, not a choice.

I missed your answers. Here are the questions again:

Answer the questions:
Does the soldier fight at his own expense?? Yes or No
Does the farmer get to eat from his crops?? Yes or No
Does the Cattleman get to drink of the milk from his herd?? Yes or No
Does the ox get to eat of the grain he is treading out?? Yes or No

These are the questions Paul asked to get his point across. When you answer these, then you will have the answer to the question under consideration here.

1 Tim 3 does NOT merely say a pastor shouldn't be “greedy for money.” It says a pastor should not be greedy for “FILTHY LUCRE.”

I just realized you are following a textual variant here. It is probably a gloss from Titus 1:7. In any case, it doesn't support your point since "material things" have already been declared by the Lord through Paul to be fitting, not filthy. You have decided wrongly what 1 Cor 9 means by ignoring the context and that illustrations, and then import that into a passage that is talking about something different, if it is original at all.

I wrote, and I quote; “ANY believer fitting the 1 Tim 3 standard is qualified for the office of pastor.” The 1 Tim 3 standard IS all male. Why did you imply that I said otherwise when I did not?

I misunderstood what you said. I was offering a clarification. Please accept my apologies for the inference that I made and commented on.

 

[latterrain77]

I’m happy to see that you believe a pastor does NOT “have to be” formally educated (though you feel they “should be”). This softens your earlier comment about “professional pastors” and would mean that ANY believer (including soldiers/farmers for example) meeting the 1 Tim 3 standard would be qualified to be a pastor (i.e. “laymen”).

V7 is simply distinguishing “earthly” careers from “heavenly” obligations (careers from callings). A soldier/farmer CAN make a living from soldiering and farming, yet they cannot as a pastor (though each of these CAN also be a pastor, without compensation, if they meet the 1 Tim. 3 standard). It illustrates that Paul could make a living as a “tentmaker,” though not as a pastor. A soldier/farmer’s reward is not the same as a pastor’s, and verse 7 makes that distinction, and V18 bears it out, where Paul says:

“What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.” 1 Cor. 9: 7 (kjv).

I agree that “material things” are not filthy. However, they BECOME filthy when they are idolized, become the object of greed and avarice, or the aim of attainment through bad intent.

No apologies are necessary at all Larry, and I thank you for offering it.

latterrain77