Church And Israel

[Van]

Progressive Dispensationalism holds to a single progressive plan of redemption that includes Israel and the Gentiles, as well as the whole creation. It includes a single destiny for the redeemed — Christ's eschatological Kingdom and a restored creation. And it interprets the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, being fully realized in that coming physical Kingdom. Progressive Dispensationalism is able to use a consistent hermeneutic in both Testaments, and explain the differences between God's dealings with Israel as a nation and the whole Church as a redeemed body. [snip] Progressive Dispensationalism relies heavily on the actual interpretations of the Old Testament by the New Testament writers.

This method of interpretation, called complimentary hermeneutics, is critical for proper interpetation of Old Testament promises and prophecies.

 

[Lodic]

This method of interpretation, called complimentary hermeneutics, is critical for proper interpetation of Old Testament promises and prophecies.

While I am not a Dispensationalist of any stripe (nor even a Futurist, for that matter), I do agree this hermeneutical method is valuable. @John of Japan described a method a few responses earlier in this thread. For my own simple understanding, I try to understand what the author meant against the historical and cultural background, and I try to see how the original audience would understand the message.

 

[Van]

While I am not a Dispensationalist of any stripe (nor even a Futurist, for that matter), I do agree this hermeneutical method is valuable. @John of Japan described a method a few responses earlier in this thread. For my own simple understanding, I try to understand what the author meant against the historical and cultural background, and I try to see how the original audience would understand the message.

The issue of course, is where the NT writer takes the words of the OT in a new or expanded direction.
Thus, the immediate OT audience would understand the prophecy based the historical and cultural background of their day, whereas our expanded understanding in light of the NT usage, would differ.

 

[HankD]

The issue of course, is where the NT writer takes the words of the OT in a new or expanded direction.
Thus, the immediate OT audience would understand the prophecy based the historical and cultural background of their day, whereas our expanded understanding in light of the NT usage, would differ.

Or both

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

 

[Covenanter]

John, while we recognise the strengths of those who have studied theology in depth there is no consensus of Biblical truth among theologians.
Being recognised as a theologian is no guarantee of sound Gospel theology.
Many of us have studied theology through Scripture, sound ministry & good books for many decades, & have a good Scriptural basis for challenging theologians when their teaching deviates from Scriptural/Gospel orthodoxy.

As the Jews said -

The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?” John 7:15

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13​

 

[asterisktom]

John, while we recognise the strengths of those who have studied theology in depth there is no consensus of Biblical truth among theologians.
Being recognised as a theologian is no guarantee of sound Gospel theology.
Many of us have studied theology through Scripture, sound ministry & good books for many decades, & have a good Scriptural basis for challenging theologians when their teaching deviates from Scriptural/Gospel orthodoxy.

As the Jews said -

The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?” John 7:15

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13​

It has been my observation that many who enter theological institutions tend to have their beliefs set in stone by whatever system their school learns toward. The ones more apt to actually grow in knowledge and be willing to critically examine their beliefs are those who just keep studying their Bibles.

This is a general observation, of course. I myself have a BA in Bible from BJU and have changed my views constantly. I still don't regret having gone there. I just wish I had been more discerning.

 

[Covenanter]

One way of advancing our theological knowledge is participation in discussion forums like this one. We hear a full range of Bible interpretations & exhortations & experiences.
Our spiritual understanding & application is being extended all the time. And we make friends who we can occasionally meet up with. Anyone else living on the England-Wales border?

Thanks Mods for all you do & originators for making it available.

 

[kyredneck]

those who just keep studying their Bibles

...true students of the Word...

have changed my views constantly

Ditto

 

[John of Japan]

John, while we recognise the strengths of those who have studied theology in depth there is no consensus of Biblical truth among theologians.
Being recognised as a theologian is no guarantee of sound Gospel theology.
Many of us have studied theology through Scripture, sound ministry & good books for many decades, & have a good Scriptural basis for challenging theologians when their teaching deviates from Scriptural/Gospel orthodoxy.

As the Jews said -

The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?” John 7:15

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13​

Do you consider yourself to be a theologian? If not, my point is made. My point was not about the soundness of the theology of any given theologian, it was about the meaning of the word "theologian."

 

[Gorship]

Do you have to have a degree to be a "theologian"?

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[HankD]

Most here at the BB are at least amateur theologians.

 

[Covenanter]

Do you consider yourself to be a theologian? If not, my point is made. My point was not about the soundness of the theology of any given theologian, it was about the meaning of the word "theologian."

Yes.
According to Webster definition 1 -

Definition of theology
1: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2a: a theological theory or systemThomist theologya theology of atonement
b: a distinctive body of theological opinion Catholic theology
3: a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary​

Over 60 years reading, listening, writing & within that time sharing & teaching.

 

[Lodic]

The issue of course, is where the NT writer takes the words of the OT in a new or expanded direction.
Thus, the immediate OT audience would understand the prophecy based the historical and cultural background of their day, whereas our expanded understanding in light of the NT usage, would differ.

Yes. Fortunately, we get help sometimes - e.g., Peter quoted Joel 2 in Acts 2 to explain that this was fulfillment of prophecy. When the NT clarifies or expounds upon the OT, we should go with the NT understanding.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes.
According to Webster definition 1 -

Definition of theology
1: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2a: a theological theory or systemThomist theologya theology of atonement
b: a distinctive body of theological opinion Catholic theology
3: a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary​

Over 60 years reading, listening, writing & within that time sharing & teaching.

No, no, we want a definition of "theologian," not "theology." One may study theology for 100 years and still not get it.

Theologian: "A person who engages or is an expert in theology." (theologian | Definition of theologian in English by Oxford Dictionaries)

Note that simply studying theology does not make one a theologian by this definition. One must actually engage in it, not just study it. One must become expert at it.

I do not call myself a theologian, though I teach 5 credits of it in college and seminary. I've studied it for about 45 years, myself (since my first theology course in college), but do not call myself a theologian. I don't call myself a missiologist, though I teach 6 credits in that. I'm not an expert in those fields. I do call myself a linguist, because I have earned the right to do so, because that is the area I teach most of (11 credits of Greek and translation studies) .

 

[John of Japan]

Most here at the BB are at least amateur theologians.

I'm quite all right with anyone on the BB calling themselves amateur theologians. We are all amateurs in many areas.

 

[Gorship]

Perhaps we're all just forumogeons

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[John of Japan]

Do you have to have a degree to be a "theologian"?

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Do you have to have a degree to be a doctor?
Do you have to have a degree to be a lawyer?
Do you have to have a degree to be an Indian chief? (I'm making a point here.)

 

[Gorship]

I don't think you need a degree to be an Indian chief no

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[Gorship]

You dont need a degree to know medicine or law just to work in the profession.



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[Lodic]

Do you have to have a degree to be a doctor?
Do you have to have a degree to be a lawyer?
Do you have to have a degree to be an Indian chief? (I'm making a point here.)

Hey, there could be a fun song there....oh, I'm a few decades too late . As you say, we are all amateur theologians at the very least. I'd like to be more "professional" some day, whether or not I ever get a degree.