Church as a business?

[gb93433]

It is a well known fact that typically as the income goes up, the percentage of their income that is given goes down. The highest percentage given was during the depression than before the depression. It continued at the same percentage until 2006 when Americans were 569% richer after taxes and inflation than in the Great Depression. Source:You Mean I Dont Have to Tithe? by David A. Croteau)

 

[Tom Butler]

Is your church elder lead or congregational lead?

Good question. The only elder we have is our pastor. We have deacons, but they do not "run the church." When I first became a deacon in 1967, though, it was that way. The deacons acted as a board, and exercised great influence on the direction of the church.

It is no longer that way. We see ourselves as servants, not bosses. The congregation does look to its deacons for some leadership, but mainly, it looks to our pastor.

I wouldn't say that our church is congregation-led in the pure sense of the concept. The congregation has the ultimate authority, but but delegates the legwork to pastor, deacons, trustees and other committees.

As I said in another post, once the congregation has approved the budget (which reflects our mission and outreach priorities), it has basically done its work.

Of course, there is a degree of accountability for us all. But we understand that our pastor is ultimately accountable to God for the church.

Other churches may operate differently, but it works for us.

 

[saturneptune]

Is your church elder lead or congregational lead?

I attend the same church as Tom, and he has painted an accurate picture of the finances. It works very well. Our only problem with money is a declineing population because our average age is well above 70.

We are congregationally ruled. I spent over 25 years in a Presbyterian Church, and have been here 35. There is no way I would ever be in a church with elder rule or a hierarchy. Elder rule tends to become elder worship. They are elected more on social status than spiritual maturity. My experience is that our deacons and even our individual congregation memeber are far superior in spiritual maturity than the Presbyterian elders and Presbyters above them. There is not one ounce of arrogance in our church, and it needs to stay that way.

 

[DiamondLady]

We are a very small church, typically Southern Baptist. We're led by the pastor and have committees, including a finance committee of which, as treasurer, I am chairperson. We prepare and present an annual budget, based upon the previous year's giving, to the church each year. We do not, however, live and breathe by that budget. A budget is a guideline. We try to stick to it, and do in areas of salaries and mission giving but in ministries (children's, VBS, etc) in facilities (supplies, repairs, utilities etc) and in benevolence we realize that the budget must be flexible.

You must run a church, finance wise, similarly to a business, but there must be a heart component as well. I'll never forget the time, we were working on the budget and tithes and offerings were down quite a bit and we were forced to cut expenses and the budget. One of the men said we should just write the checks and send them out, even if we didn't have the money, and trust God to provide it. A church can't do that, so in that way one must run it like a business....only spending what you have. It's not that God CAN'T provide, He can, but we need to be good stewards of the money given by the congregation and spend it wisely.

 

[gb93433]

You must run a church, finance wise, similarly to a business, but there must be a heart component as well. I'll never forget the time, we were working on the budget and tithes and offerings were down quite a bit and we were forced to cut expenses and the budget. One of the men said we should just write the checks and send them out, even if we didn't have the money, and trust God to provide it. A church can't do that, so in that way one must run it like a business....only spending what you have. It's not that God CAN'T provide, He can, but we need to be good stewards of the money given by the congregation and spend it wisely.

When I worked at two business every month we saw churches that did not pay its bill. They were churches that did not run into hard times but "trusted God for their finances." It was common that their greed exceeded their needs. Imagine what I felt like working among non-Christians who knew that too.

I pastored a church and saw how they did their books. I told the lady who kept the books that they were doing it wrong and it was not legal. The lady went to the denomination and what they told her was wrong. when I filed my taxes the IRS came back with a letter saying that I owed about $5,000. My accountant wrote a letter to the IRS and they sent me a nice letter in return saying that everything was good. The problem fell back on the church that refused to listen on a lot of things.

I always laugh when people say that the church should not be run like a business because like churches, about 80% of the churches and businesses that are started fail within two years.

I know a pastor who is the son in law of a well known denominational leader who beats the drum of believing the Bible. The son in law's church crashed due to some irresponsible financial accounting. The church ended up in trouble because they disregarded some legal things because they saw them as unimportant. When someone (outside of the church) filed a lawsuit the people vanished.

 

[gb93433]

I attend the same church as Tom, and he has painted an accurate picture of the finances. It works very well. Our only problem with money is a declineing population because our average age is well above 70.

There are methods that have worked which could help that problem if the people are willing to work. A few years ago a church contact me which was in much the same situation and when I told them about what they could do they gave all kinds of excuses about how they were old and could not do anything. All they kept saying was that they needed some young people. I gave them a method and was willing to help them but my advice fell on deaf ears.

I was in a church where an elderly man was reaching people all the time because he loved and cared about them. Whenever I was at his home his phone was always ringing. There were 1200 at his funeral. Person after person talked about how had used him in their life. at about the age of 90 my grandmother told me and my wife about how she hated being around old people because they were always griping. 90 and did not like being around old people!!!! she loved kids and young people. She had helped a lot of young people when she could. She often sewed for young moms.

 

[agedman]

Good question. The only elder we have is our pastor. We have deacons, but they do not "run the church." When I first became a deacon in 1967, though, it was that way. The deacons acted as a board, and exercised great influence on the direction of the church.

It is no longer that way. We see ourselves as servants, not bosses. The congregation does look to its deacons for some leadership, but mainly, it looks to our pastor.

I wouldn't say that our church is congregation-led in the pure sense of the concept. The congregation has the ultimate authority, but but delegates the legwork to pastor, deacons, trustees and other committees.

As I said in another post, once the congregation has approved the budget (which reflects our mission and outreach priorities), it has basically done its work.

Of course, there is a degree of accountability for us all. But we understand that our pastor is ultimately accountable to God for the church.

Other churches may operate differently, but it works for us.

Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.

 

[saturneptune]

There are methods that have worked which could help that problem if the people are willing to work. A few years ago a church contact me which was in much the same situation and when I told them about what they could do they gave all kinds of excuses about how they were old and could not do anything. All they kept saying was that they needed some young people. I gave them a method and was willing to help them but my advice fell on deaf ears.

I was in a church where an elderly man was reaching people all the time because he loved and cared about them. Whenever I was at his home his phone was always ringing. There were 1200 at his funeral. Person after person talked about how had used him in their life. at about the age of 90 my grandmother told me and my wife about how she hated being around old people because they were always griping. 90 and did not like being around old people!!!! she loved kids and young people. She had helped a lot of young people when she could. She often sewed for young moms.

Thanks for that post. I am Sunday School director, and it is very challenging to say the least, if we have, say 50, that come on Sunday morning and literally 40 of them are 70 and above. We have people that are in their 80s, and 90s and still live alone and drive.

The pastor, myself and some others visit on Saturdays, class by class, to try and get people back in Sunday School. We need families with growing children. I would say the population between 15-55 is practically nonexistent. I like to minister to older people, but that is only part of the equation. All ages should be there for a healthy congregation. I am just a little time away from 60, and considered a young person. That is a red flag. I do not know if the problem is lack of visitation, or just the general mindset of the community. When I first started going there, all ages were there. We had 600 members 30 years ago. Not really sure what happened. The love the congregation has for each other is amazing, and that is why i said, in the other thread, I would never destroy the fellowship we do have over a issue like Calvinism. It is sometimes a helpless feeling knowing the number of lost people in our small town, and seeing pew after pew empty. Sometimes I look at the crowd at a UK basketball game, and look at the cheering, the packed house, the excitement, and wondered how I could transfer that to interest in the Lord. The final conclusion is trust in the Lord. He is in control of this, but it is hard not to have up and down feelings about it. However, although the Lord is in control, that is no excuse for laziness and not visiting.

 

[Tom Butler]

Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.

Trustees fulfill a legal requirement, not a Biblical requirement.

At our church, the trustees also serve as the House and Grounds Committee. Other churches may do it differently.

They are not elders. We have only one elder, our pastor.

 

[DiamondLady]

Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.

We do not have Elders and our Trustees are more of a glorified Buildings and Grounds Committee...every man in the church is a "trustee." Our church is incorporated and has three officers who are the legal binding authorities. One we're going to have to replace rather quickly...our chairman of the Deacons who was the "President" passed away in December, myself as Treasurer, and then one church member "at large" elected from the membership for a period of time.

 

[glfredrick]

Would you consider the trustees of the typical Baptist church the Elders?

I realize that trustees are actually legal binding authorities over the property and additions, and are then both signers and guarantees of the loans and legal documents.

I was just wondering if there would be some connection (since trustees are not a biblical station and elder is.

Some might, but that would not be accurate.

Elders are "pastors" according to the qualifications in Scripture.

 

[glfredrick]

Thanks for that post. I am Sunday School director, and it is very challenging to say the least, if we have, say 50, that come on Sunday morning and literally 40 of them are 70 and above. We have people that are in their 80s, and 90s and still live alone and drive.

The pastor, myself and some others visit on Saturdays, class by class, to try and get people back in Sunday School. We need families with growing children. I would say the population between 15-55 is practically nonexistent. I like to minister to older people, but that is only part of the equation. All ages should be there for a healthy congregation. I am just a little time away from 60, and considered a young person. That is a red flag. I do not know if the problem is lack of visitation, or just the general mindset of the community. When I first started going there, all ages were there. We had 600 members 30 years ago. Not really sure what happened. The love the congregation has for each other is amazing, and that is why i said, in the other thread, I would never destroy the fellowship we do have over a issue like Calvinism. It is sometimes a helpless feeling knowing the number of lost people in our small town, and seeing pew after pew empty. Sometimes I look at the crowd at a UK basketball game, and look at the cheering, the packed house, the excitement, and wondered how I could transfer that to interest in the Lord. The final conclusion is trust in the Lord. He is in control of this, but it is hard not to have up and down feelings about it. However, although the Lord is in control, that is no excuse for laziness and not visiting.

You just described the typical Baptst church in America.

Worse, the culture of the older generation that now runs the church is SO vastly different from your younger target demographic that you will likely never reach them. They do not think the same, they do not dress the same. They do not speak the same. They do not look the same. They do not smell the same. They do not listen to the same music, have the same cultural identity and earmarks, they do not even consider the world the same, and yet you must use what and who you have to reach them.

It will take a MISSIONAL attempt to reach a new and younger crowd for your church and I'd venture a guess that there are not all that many in your congregation who see themselves as missionaries. Rather, they see themselves as the "guards" of the church and they will seek to insure its form and culture until they pass from this earth.

Meanwhile, you die...

 

[nodak]

Random thoughts: it is just as wrong to tailor make church for the youth, or for young families, as it is to tailor make it for the older folks.

No need for a generational fight--and realize that to an extent, yes, those that pay the bills will exercise a de facto control. Obviously if one thinks money is being spent differently than the Lord would approve, one is not likely to give it. Nor should one.

Younger folks are less tradition bound in a good way--so rather than come in and "steal" the church building and structures the oldies built, why not start a new work to reach the younger ones and let the older ones have a church that ministers to their hearts? Younger folks are likely to respond to house church, rented room church, etc.

Tithing can be done creatively, also. If you attend a church but are not happy with the way the money is spent, and have no other alternatives, let the Lord lead you how much to give to the church and how much of your tithe to put to other use.

And sometimes, in today's economy, that "other use" is feeding your children, or clothing your mate, or seeing to your elderly parents.

I seriously doubt God gets in a twit when you do those things.

 

[gb93433]

Younger folks are less tradition bound in a good way--so rather than come in and "steal" the church building and structures the oldies built, why not start a new work to reach the younger ones and let the older ones have a church that ministers to their hearts? Younger folks are likely to respond to house church, rented room church, etc.

That would depend on the youth. They have their own traditions already.

Tithing can be done creatively, also. If you attend a church but are not happy with the way the money is spent, and have no other alternatives, let the Lord lead you how much to give to the church and how much of your tithe to put to other use.

I have seen that and gave a sermon on it. We had a method of helping people and not just giving money away. What I saw was people who gave money to some who claimed to need help but did not. In fact a few were told they would get their home worked on or some other work done and the person took their money and left.

 

[glfredrick]

Here's the issue as I see it (as do many other missiologists):

A church with a largely older congregation has probably locked into a PARTICULAR cultural expression. This seems to be more true within a church than outside its doors, and that largely due to the homogenius make-up of those church members. While they are indeed part of the "set" that is the world, and part of the "set" that is their community (with all the local flavor and culture), they are also part of another "set" that largely defines their worldview and that "set" is the local congregation that they have invested their lives into attending, leading, giving, serving, etc.

Because they are removed from the cultural norms (for the most part) because of their smaller contained "set" (church membership) they tend to have no real motivation to change their culture. In fact, if anything, the church offers to them "insulation" that assists them in rejecting the larger culture of the world around them. So, while they likely do participate with their community in general, listen to some similar radio and watch similar televion stations, and generally dress in a way that allows them to blend with their community, their particular "set" finds them more locked down than the general community, with trends in music, dress, workdview, culture, etc., lending creedence to ONE PARTICULAR STYLE --and that largely "the church they remember" and the "church they inherited from their parents."

These two issues mean that the congregation is anachronistic to the populace at large in the community and they likely take pride in the fact that someone who wishes to enter this particular congregation would need to "swim upstream" in order to successfully blend with the balance of the movers and shakers. This is likely even expressed verbally with some sense of pride and satisfaction, i.e., "We do church right and everyone else is changing the gospel, singing songs that are not of God, etc."

Therein lies the rub... The greater community around the church doesn't care that the people within the church prefer a 1960s model, a particular (and perhaps even "weird" or "peculiar") church culture that does not match its community, or that they must adopt the churches culture in order to fit within its "set." They just go elsewhere or not at all, largely depending on the overall culture of the particular community.

So, the church that is proud of the fact that they do church right, make other swim upstream to become members (and note I'm not talking about gospel imperatives here, this is a cultural issue), and where, generally, one must become "weird" or "peculiar" like the congregation, will die as members die off one-by-one.

The best way, in my estimation, to handle this issue is to instill a new culture in the church -- don't ask the people to change, they'd rather die! -- but instead, a culture that wishes above all to leave a legacy. They can BEST do that by planting a new congregation right within the walls of their existing building. Get on board with a new church start in the same building, call some younger solid folks who are theologically sound, and give them a few resources and let them fly. They will look different, act different, sound different, and do things differently, but at least they will be doing all that instead of not.

 

[gb93433]

Here's the issue as I see it (as do many other missiologists):

A church with a largely older congregation has probably locked into a PARTICULAR cultural expression. This seems to be more true within a church than outside its doors, and that largely due to the homogeneous make-up of those church members. While they are indeed part of the "set" that is the world, and part of the "set" that is their community (with all the local flavor and culture), they are also part of another "set" that largely defines their worldview and that "set" is the local congregation that they have invested their lives into attending, leading, giving, serving, etc.

Because they are removed from the cultural norms (for the most part) because of their smaller contained "set" (church membership) they tend to have no real motivation to change their culture. In fact, if anything, the church offers to them "insulation" that assists them in rejecting the larger culture of the world around them. So, while they likely do participate with their community in general, listen to some similar radio and watch similar television stations, and generally dress in a way that allows them to blend with their community, their particular "set" finds them more locked down than the general community, with trends in music, dress, worldview, culture, etc., lending creedence to ONE PARTICULAR STYLE --and that largely "the church they remember" and the "church they inherited from their parents."

These two issues mean that the congregation is anachronistic to the populace at large in the community and they likely take pride in the fact that someone who wishes to enter this particular congregation would need to "swim upstream" in order to successfully blend with the balance of the movers and shakers. This is likely even expressed verbally with some sense of pride and satisfaction, i.e., "We do church right and everyone else is changing the gospel, singing songs that are not of God, etc."

Therein lies the rub... The greater community around the church doesn't care that the people within the church prefer a 1960s model, a particular (and perhaps even "weird" or "peculiar") church culture that does not match its community, or that they must adopt the churches culture in order to fit within its "set." They just go elsewhere or not at all, largely depending on the overall culture of the particular community.

So, the church that is proud of the fact that they do church right, make other swim upstream to become members (and note I'm not talking about gospel imperatives here, this is a cultural issue), and where, generally, one must become "weird" or "peculiar" like the congregation, will die as members die off one-by-one.

The best way, in my estimation, to handle this issue is to instill a new culture in the church -- don't ask the people to change, they'd rather die! -- but instead, a culture that wishes above all to leave a legacy. They can BEST do that by planting a new congregation right within the walls of their existing building. Get on board with a new church start in the same building, call some younger solid folks who are theologically sound, and give them a few resources and let them fly. They will look different, act different, sound different, and do things differently, but at least they will be doing all that instead of not.

Great job of explaining things.

I might add that so many young people respect older people for their wisdom and stability in life. A lot of that is due to the fact that their parents were not home. The problem is that nobody wants to listen a grump who talks about the old days and about himself. Young people cannot talk about the days past what they remember. Most of them are looking forward to life ahead and they also struggle with that too.

Recently I was an interim pastor at a dying church in a city where the average age is 29. I quickly realized that the church had some of the most selfish people I had ever met. The people who reaching the most young people were older than 45. The music was led by a man who was 27 and he did a great job. I was the oldest person (58) in the church. I realized that a number of the younger people had been to a particular Bible school and a number of them thought they knew more than they really did. Some of the young people were not there to learn but to demonstrate how much they knew and hold to "sound doctrine." I finally told them that as long as there was a divided leadership and they continued to be selfish that I could not help them. The youngest person in leadership was focused on finances and the oldest were reaching people.

I think the one quality a church must have is love. Love must be demonstrated by an absence of self and putting others first. Young people can learn to be selfish or selfless by our example. I have never seen a dead or dying church that was always selfless unless the town died.

The percentage of people who come to Christ under 18 is huge and the percentage over 50 is close to zero. When I was in AZ I saw older people who came for the sole purpose of reaching people their age and they did. For us to reach people we must go where they are.

The an who got me started in business had young people around him all the time. When he died there were more people at his funeral that attendance in that church. In fact there was not enough room in the gymnasium and sanctuary. So they had to set up a system outside for people to see and hear. The service lasted 3 hours. People from all ages were there.

I firmly believe that people expect others to act their age, but they do not care to be around selfish people. Recently I met with a young pastor each week to help him learn how to make disciples. He is now involved in planting a church in another city. Many of our discussions were about the things he struggled with in pastoring. Over and over I tried to keep him focused on what God wanted from him and how he would reach those that others were not reaching. I told him about some of the struggles I had when I was his age and how God blessed in some incredible ways that I least expected.

 

[gb93433]

A church with a largely older congregation has probably locked into a PARTICULAR cultural expression.

There is a good article at http://www.churchleaders.com/pastor...er&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily-Update

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I must admit I have a problem with "hireling clergy". And the church is not a building, so I am not held captive by the idea that we must give to an organized church.

Presently, I am giving to St. Jude Hospital, and to a no-kill local animal shelter. I feel my money is actually doing some good here, as opposed to seeing it used to fund a pastor's new suit.

 

[gb93433]

I must admit I have a problem with "hireling clergy". And the church is not a building, so I am not held captive by the idea that we must give to an organized church.

Presently, I am giving to St. Jude Hospital, and to a no-kill local animal shelter. I feel my money is actually doing some good here, as opposed to seeing it used to fund a pastor's new suit.

Are you saying that you go to a church where the pastor is a hireling? If that is the case then you are listening and sitting under the teaching of a hireling and exposing your family to that. I would run as fast as you can if that is the case.

I have come to the opposite copnclusion in many of many of my experiences. I know there are hireling pastors but there are also hireling leaders and people in the congregation. In ever case I have tried to deisciple people and teach them how to do ministry and reach others. It is simple, pray and ask God to open doors. In every case I have had to deal with some leaders who were rebellious or afraid. Some gave me a lot of trouble as they began to see what was happening and growth was happening in the lives of others around them. eventually they were going to lose their "position."

When I was in college the pastor was asked to leave. We were shocked because he definitely was not a hireling and God was causing tremendous growth both spiritually and numerically. Shortly before I graduated and took a job somewhere else along came the next pastor and then the next pastor. After several years the church had severely declined. We had returned after 16 years and decided to go to that same church and were we shocked. My wife commented to me within a few minutes that there was no evangelism. So about one years later I had a conversation with one of the leaders in the church who had been there during the entire time. He had caused a lot of trouble. When I spoke with him I asked him to tell me about the people he had discipled. I cannot remember if he even named one person. Withing six months I mas meeting with 20 people in an effort to disciple them.

So my point is to not let someone else keep you from doing the big job God has called you to. Satan would love to have you get mixed up in the politics of the church and drag you down so you become ineffective.

 

[nodak]

As long as we define success by numbers, whether bucks or backsides, we are worldly and cannot experience what God wants the church to be.

As soon as we stop worrying about being relevant and missional in the sense of appealing to any target demographic, old, young, or whatever and start focusing on being obedient to Christ, He will bless us.

Sometimes that blessing is oodles and boodles of new believers. Sometimes that blessing is the current crop of believers growing up in Christ. Sometimes it is just hanging on until He wills the next outpouring of oodles and boodles of new believers.

But as long as we define success as pleasing the ungodly rather than obeying Christ, I firmly believe He takes His Spirit, leaves, and writes Ichobod over the door.

I've watched it time and again, as at least one convention I love has grown from 16 million or so I was told, to around 6 million, or so stats indicate.

Yeah, that was real successful growth.

We are NOT to go out and win tithing units.

We ARE to proclaim the gospel.

Which is bound to offend the rebellious, the ungodly, the unsaved, and the unspiritual.

If the only church you can find is still in this phase of pleasing itching ears, refuse to attend, or attend, speak the truth, and put your tithe or giving elsewhere where the gospel is being accurately preached.

When all a group is focused on is the wallet, use the wallet to grab their attention.

And pray God grant repentance.