Church budget unavailable: Stay or go?

[righteousdude2]

This is Becoming COMMON Place!

My wife and I have attended four different churches, over the last twenty-one years, and none of them have provided budgets; held church business meetings; taken a vote on new pastors and associates; and list goes on.

None of these churches are that big, and it wouldn't matter any ways, as it seems to me that the church, regardless of the number of members it has, is required to conduct itself professionally and practice good stewardship.

Business reports and budgets are required and provided in public agencies (i.e., city council, county ). Therefore, I can't understand why churches have gotten out of the practice of keeping their membership informed of the finances. I've been told by the pastor's of those churches, that I needed to trust that they were spending the money in the way the Lord leads.

In other words, they claim to be accountable for God, not the members.

All of these churches had special building fund offerings, and we gave above and beyond. However, we no longer give to these special funds because it seems they reach the stated goal, and in a year they need more money, and the building improvement and additions are never seen.

It just seems to be an ever increasing practice, and a lot of these "no show churches" followed the lead of the Calvary Chapel movement, which as far as I know, NEVER has business meetings, or will not produce budgets. :BangHead:

I don't mean to put Chuck Smith on the spot, as I'm sure there are others that don't do public business any long, so, I guess we have to learn to trust, and give, as well as "Trust and Obey!" :laugh:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[StefanM]

RUN. What you described is a recipe for disaster. If the pastor appoints the boards, then he has no oversight.

 

[Pleasant_Bill]

RUN. What you described is a recipe for disaster. If the pastor appoints the boards, then he has no oversight.

Pretty much. As others have said it's hard to just leave without voicing the concerns.

However, a meeting (as previously stated) is unlikely and to speak of these issues to other members would probably not be glorifying to God. I don't want to drop a hand grenade in the room as I walk out the door.

 

[David Lamb]

Pretty much. As others have said it's hard to just leave without voicing the concerns.

However, a meeting (as previously stated) is unlikely and to speak of these issues to other members would probably not be glorifying to God. I don't want to drop a hand grenade in the room as I walk out the door.

OK, if (for whatever reason) a meeting is impossible, I suggest you write a letter to your pastor, expressing your concerns. Judging by your posts on this thread, I feel sure you could do that in a tactful and loving way.

 

[Bro. James]

The enemy is in the camp

Many New Testament churches have been infiltrated by the unregenerated. This has in effect hindered the cause of Christ in many congregations. This is not a new situation. Consider the seven churches of Asia--Rev. 2,3.

There are situations where a board of deacons, the majority of which are F&AM, make "recommendations" to the congregation at business meeting, without a quorum; motions are made, seconded and passed unanimously.

Was the First Church of Jerusalem a tax exempt LLC? Church is not a business.

"God does not dwell in temples made with hands"

Buy more Bibles, not more buildings.

Love of money is still the root of all evil. We got Bernie Madoff types in churches too.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Pleasant_Bill]

My wife and I have attended four different churches, over the last twenty-one years, and none of them have provided budgets; held church business meetings; taken a vote on new pastors and associates; and list goes on.

None of these churches are that big, and it wouldn't matter any ways, as it seems to me that the church, regardless of the number of members it has, is required to conduct itself professionally and practice good stewardship.

Business reports and budgets are required and provided in public agencies (i.e., city council, county ). Therefore, I can't understand why churches have gotten out of the practice of keeping their membership informed of the finances. I've been told by the pastor's of those churches, that I needed to trust that they were spending the money in the way the Lord leads.

In other words, they claim to be accountable for God, not the members.

All of these churches had special building fund offerings, and we gave above and beyond. However, we no longer give to these special funds because it seems they reach the stated goal, and in a year they need more money, and the building improvement and additions are never seen.

It just seems to be an ever increasing practice, and a lot of these "no show churches" followed the lead of the Calvary Chapel movement, which as far as I know, NEVER has business meetings, or will not produce budgets. :BangHead:

I don't mean to put Chuck Smith on the spot, as I'm sure there are others that don't do public business any long, so, I guess we have to learn to trust, and give, as well as "Trust and Obey!" :laugh:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

Thanks.

I'm trying hard not to be jaded (both my wife and I are) but it's going to be hard searching for a new church after all this time without using a Litmus test on each one we visit.

A couple requirements for me and my family at this point:

1. Leadership and Finance team NOT selected by Senior Pastor.
2. Semi-published budget with particulars available on request.
3. The Pastor has got to be involved with the ministries of the congregation. He should be out there with the volunteers on outreach programs, visiting people in hospital, open door policy, and have a servant's heart. It's been years since I've seen that.

 

[Don]

OK, if (for whatever reason) a meeting is impossible, I suggest you write a letter to your pastor, expressing your concerns. Judging by your posts on this thread, I feel sure you could do that in a tactful and loving way.

Now THAT is a good idea. If you can't get a private meeting, you can ensure that your message gets to him. In fact, you could even wait around to see if you get a response.

 

[preachinjesus]

I don't understand the not getting a private meeting. Over the years I've served under some rather significant pastors and in churches that run six to eight thousand on Sunday and I've never, never seen a senior pastor deny a longstanding member a meeting.

They might not be able to do it right away, it might not be over an hour, but I've never seen that happen. Just saying, if leadership starts to cut themselves off from their people they are losing a most important voice.

 

[webdog]

Just a side note, but when a church grows so large that they need more staffing, hence more and higher salaries, isn't this the time to branch off into other churches? The more members, the more giving, the more temptation on matters of greed.

 

[Tom Butler]

Just a side note, but when a church grows so large that they need more staffing, hence more and higher salaries, isn't this the time to branch off into other churches? The more members, the more giving, the more temptation on matters of greed.

Add my vote to your idea.

And this triggers in my mind another question. Can a church get too big? if yes, at what point? This is for another thread.

 

[Pleasant_Bill]

OK, if (for whatever reason) a meeting is impossible, I suggest you write a letter to your pastor, expressing your concerns. Judging by your posts on this thread, I feel sure you could do that in a tactful and loving way.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I might give that a try, although at this point it's been going on for a long enough time that it's hard to believe anything short of a bucket of cold water in the face will make him see the truth. I'm positive the wrestling match with their conscience is done and they truly believe they're not at fault.

I don't understand the not getting a private meeting. Over the years I've served under some rather significant pastors and in churches that run six to eight thousand on Sunday and I've never, never seen a senior pastor deny a longstanding member a meeting.

They might not be able to do it right away, it might not be over an hour, but I've never seen that happen. Just saying, if leadership starts to cut themselves off from their people they are losing a most important voice.

I'm trying hard to remember when his attitude towards the congregation changed. As it stands now, Sunday he comes in from a side door straight to the back stage area (which is a locked area). Then he practices his sermon until he's ready to deliver it then continues to sit back there. If he has to go to the restroom, a deacon escorts him to and from the backstage area via a side door. After the final service, he leaves staightaway.

During the week, if you visit the office you are told via intercom (can't just walk in anymore) that he's not available. If you call, he's in a meeting or otherwise unavailable.

It's almost like he's a celebrity/rockstar or a high ranking politician.

Just a side note, but when a church grows so large that they need more staffing, hence more and higher salaries, isn't this the time to branch off into other churches? The more members, the more giving, the more temptation on matters of greed.

Good point. What I don't understand though is when a Pastor feels they deserve more pay if there are more members. If the membership plummets, would they likewise decrease their pay? Probably not. It's like gas prices; they skyrocket at the speed of light and diminish at the speed of a snail.

 

[Dr Mixer GED]

Buy more Bibles, not more buildings.

AMEN. Never heard Paul address building funds.

 

[David Lamb]

Thanks for the suggestion.

I might give that a try, although at this point it's been going on for a long enough time that it's hard to believe anything short of a bucket of cold water in the face will make him see the truth. I'm positive the wrestling match with their conscience is done and they truly believe they're not at fault.

Brother, if things have got to that stage, then you really need to consider whether you can in good conscience remain a member of that church.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I've read thru most of this. My two cents?

Get out while the getting is good or get ready to endure the implosion of the church that is coming. You have serious problems with the church.

My own church is about the same size as yours. Membership runs about 1500 and about 800-1000 are active.

Yes, the church is locked during the day. For security because we began having problems with strangers "walking thru" picking up loose items and carrying them off. There is an intercom and members simply identify themselves and are buzzed in. OR they can simply walk in thru the family life center which is manned most of the time. (summer hours are shortened)

I have the personal phone numbers of pretty much all the staff(we have an entirely new to us staff within the last year or less) and those numbers I don't have I would be given if I asked. And yeah, that means their home numbers. Our church expects our staff from senior minister on down to be available to the congregation. Being available is part of what we pay them for!

Since pay has come up, our senior minister does make around $150,000, but that includes everything from his base pay to housing to social security to insurance and everything in between. Other staff members make less, but they are still well payed. We expect a lot from our staff and they are highly educated so we are willing AND able to pay them so they aren't worrying about the power bill or the car payment while they meet those expectations. The workman is worth his wage.

How does the membership know how much staff makes? By coming to the business meetings! We don't hold them only on Sunday or Wednesday night. We might just have one on Sunday morning. (yep, means non-members might know our business. So what? We are a big church and we have a reputation for the Lord to protect. If a non-member hears/sees our numbers they understand and take back to the community the idea that we have integrity even if at the same time they say we pay our preacher too much)

Your preacher seems to have lost his identity as a minister of Christ. He's putting himself on a pedastal looking down at all the peons of the congregation. That sort of separation between minister and congregation is bound to cause problems all throughout the church. So I repeat: get out while the getting is good or hold on tight for the ride. Only you can decide what is best for your family.

 

[Pleasant_Bill]

I've read thru most of this. My two cents?

Get out while the getting is good or get ready to endure the implosion of the church that is coming. You have serious problems with the church.

My own church is about the same size as yours. Membership runs about 1500 and about 800-1000 are active.

Yes, the church is locked during the day. For security because we began having problems with strangers "walking thru" picking up loose items and carrying them off. There is an intercom and members simply identify themselves and are buzzed in. OR they can simply walk in thru the family life center which is manned most of the time. (summer hours are shortened)

I have the personal phone numbers of pretty much all the staff(we have an entirely new to us staff within the last year or less) and those numbers I don't have I would be given if I asked. And yeah, that means their home numbers. Our church expects our staff from senior minister on down to be available to the congregation. Being available is part of what we pay them for!

Since pay has come up, our senior minister does make around $150,000, but that includes everything from his base pay to housing to social security to insurance and everything in between. Other staff members make less, but they are still well payed. We expect a lot from our staff and they are highly educated so we are willing AND able to pay them so they aren't worrying about the power bill or the car payment while they meet those expectations. The workman is worth his wage.

How does the membership know how much staff makes? By coming to the business meetings! We don't hold them only on Sunday or Wednesday night. We might just have one on Sunday morning. (yep, means non-members might know our business. So what? We are a big church and we have a reputation for the Lord to protect. If a non-member hears/sees our numbers they understand and take back to the community the idea that we have integrity even if at the same time they say we pay our preacher too much)

Your preacher seems to have lost his identity as a minister of Christ. He's putting himself on a pedastal looking down at all the peons of the congregation. That sort of separation between minister and congregation is bound to cause problems all throughout the church. So I repeat: get out while the getting is good or hold on tight for the ride. Only you can decide what is best for your family.

Thanks for the sound advice.

Your church seems to be doing things the right way. With everything transparent, trust is not an issue. People can give willingly and know that there it's being spent wisely and for God's glory. I love that the whole staff is available to everyone.

Again thanks!

 

[David Lamb]

It seems from several of the posts in this thread that it is quite usual in America for churches to think of their pastor their deacons, their treasurers, their youth workers, and so on, as somehow separate from the membership. (The references to such people as "staff" strengthens that idea).

This "them and us" idea regarding "ordinary church members" and "staff" is wrong, in my opinion. It fosters the idea that church is something organised by "the staff" for the "ordinary members" to attend. A church is not like a school, where the head teacher, teachers, classroom assistants etc. are the staff, and the children are the pupils.

In my experience in the UK, the pastor, the other elders, the deacons, the organist/other musicians, the treasurer, the secretary, the leaders of the youth outreach, etc. all are (or in the case of a pastor from elsewhere, become on appointment) members of the local church. Although it may happen in some churches, I don't know of any church in this country that refers to a group of its members as "staff".

 

[menageriekeeper]

Might just be a cultural thing David.

Our staff commonly refers to itself as "staff", so its not really a disconnect between congregation and leaders. Its more a way of distinguishing who gets paid and who doesn't. The paid people get to settle any disputes and make decisions no one else wants to be responsible for.

Our staff members ARE members of the church. They join usually on the first Sunday after they've accepted the call. Most times this is before they get put on the payroll. (yes, two seperate votes: 1) acceptance for membership, 2) vote to employ. We consider one a spiritual issue and the second a business issue)

The word staff at our church also includes the custodians and, kitchen staff and even the boys who man the family life center in the afternoon.

Staff is a practical identifier rather than one which separates member from member.

 

[Old Union Brother]

It seems from several of the posts in this thread that it is quite usual in America for churches to think of their pastor their deacons, their treasurers, their youth workers, and so on, as somehow separate from the membership. (The references to such people as "staff" strengthens that idea).

This "them and us" idea regarding "ordinary church members" and "staff" is wrong, in my opinion. It fosters the idea that church is something organised by "the staff" for the "ordinary members" to attend. A church is not like a school, where the head teacher, teachers, classroom assistants etc. are the staff, and the children are the pupils.

In my experience in the UK, the pastor, the other elders, the deacons, the organist/other musicians, the treasurer, the secretary, the leaders of the youth outreach, etc. all are (or in the case of a pastor from elsewhere, become on appointment) members of the local church. Although it may happen in some churches, I don't know of any church in this country that refers to a group of its members as "staff".

Amen!!!!! I'm in America and this stuff is foreign to me. I think that some has lost sight of what the scripture says:

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

No one member in the church is better than the next. The body should never be seperated.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen!!!!! I'm in America and this stuff is foreign to me. I think that some has lost sight of what the scripture says:

No one member in the church is better than the next. The body should never be separated.

Bravo gentlemen:thumbs:

 

[David Lamb]

Might just be a cultural thing David.

Our staff commonly refers to itself as "staff", so its not really a disconnect between congregation and leaders. [snip]

Thanks for taking time to explain, menageriekeeper.

Your post throws up another cultural difference, I think. Here, it is rare for anyone apart from the pastor of a church to be paid, so (unless settling of disputes and making of decisions were to be done by one person, the pastor), the situation you mentiond: "The paid people get to settle any disputes and make decisions no one else wants to be responsible for", is also rare.

I should perhaps emphasise that I am thinking of baptist churches. In the Church of England, organists and choirmasters get paid, but unless they work in a cathedral, it is unlikely to be anywhere near enough to make a living wage.