Church cited and fined for choir singing TOO loud!

[righteousdude2]

When I first heard this story, I thought how could a choir be "too loud?" But it appears that this church sits smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood, and due to the proximity of the neighbors to the church building, it is possible that the music is bothersone to some one in the neighborhood.

Still, you would have to think that if you purchase a home where a church sits in the middle of the block, that you'd expect some spillover in noise. It's a church, people, you shouldn't have moved there if noise issues could become a concern.

This complaint reminds me of the housing tracts going up in rural areas throughout what is traditionally farmland here in Southern Cali. After moving in they started complaining about the foul smells coming from the dairy sitting upwind from your new home. Hey folks, you knew there was a dairy before you moved in, and you should've realized that cows make smells, and if you are downwind from your neighborhood dairy, that is the price of drinking milk and cutting the cheese ( pun intended).

Do you feel the church should have to quiet down for those new to an old and well established neighborhood? Or should they try buying ear plugs, and letting God be praised!

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...for-loud-music-6573360.php Church Noise-Fines

 

[Baptist Believer]

If you read the article, the complaint stated that the sound of the choir (and the band, which features drums and amplified instruments) goes until 2 a.m.

I would complain about that since that is definitely not loving your neighbors. God is not honored when religious activities undermine the welfare of others.

Years ago I was helping with a church event and the youth minister decided to overwhelm the noise of the cruising traffic (it was the local drag) with Christian music using the new portable sound system. He turned it up to deafening levels and did indeed drown out the traffic. We received a visit from the police shortly afterward for excessive noise and he apologized. As soon as they left, he cranked it up to an even louder level - getting close to maximum volume for the high-power system.

That's when I decided to leave. I was disgusted by the way his zeal for "doing the work of God" by being obnoxious and dishonest to the police officers. He apparently missed that he was also blasting part of a residential neighborhood that already had noise issues due to the cruising traffic on the weekends.

 

[Jeremiahpbc]

Thinking from a Primitive Baptist viewpoint, you don't need instruments at all when singing praises to God. Just need the words & heart. This is clearly a different church. Therefore, I think the church should have the common sense to not be loud enough to keep some neighbors up. Let alone have music going at all after a certain time in the evening. It's in a residential neighborhood, you have to keep certain driving laws when in a residential area, same goes for playing music. Have respect for the people that live there.

So yes, the church should quiet down. What they're doing is getting close to disturbing the peace of the neighborhood. There's restrictions when doing something that emits loud music, noise or smoke amongst homes.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you feel the church should have to quiet down for those new to an old and well established neighborhood? Or should they try buying ear plugs, and letting God be praised!

It may be too soon to really make a judgment, and it needs to be discovered if they were in fact going on until the wee hours o' the morn.

If that is the case, then the Church needs to stop. If they have been ending at nine, then it should be clarified and a public apology published, with a rebuke of whoever it is that has filed a bogus complaint. But I have dealt with government officials who haven't cared about fraudulent claims before. That is not a reflection on the government itself, but the individual government employees I dealt with.

The article said...

Holland, the NAACP Oakland chapter head, was deeply troubled by the noise complaint, calling it a sign of cultural divisions in Oakland.

...which I think is a bad avenue to start down. While this might indeed be a cultural issue, this smacks of racial controversy, and I doubt seriously that this Church was targeted due to race. More likely it is a Christian issue, and the Church would do well to leave the NAACP out of it and deal with it on a Christian front.

To make it a race issue only serves to show a division in the Church, and is just another stab at discrediting the Body as a whole. The one who filed the complaint, conveniently anonymous, should be questioned by the authorities handling this to determine if the complaint is legitimate, or bogus. If it is legitimate, I would side with them, as I do not see that Choir practice has to have amplification. I think unbelievers and believers alike would agree that excessive noise during a time when it is known people are sleeping does not reflect a Christ-like attitude towards the community the fellowship should be trying to serve.


God bless.

 

[dyanmarie25]

Our neighbors always have this little church gathering in their house every weekend, and they would sing worships and praises all the time. And honestly, I am totally fine with that. In fact, whenever I hear them play those gospel songs, I feel even more blessed and happy. I just sing along with them and even jump for joy.

 

[pwarbi]

I think noise from a choir, and noise from amplified instruments and drums though are two separate things. For a church to be making that much noise at 2am in the middle of a residential area, then surely they must know what they're doing wrong?

I certainly wouldn't like that amount of noise in my area but having said that, I'm not sure if I'd have complained too much about it either. It wasn't as if it was every night.

 

[Sue-Ellen]

If it is going on until the wee hours of the morning then I can see how neighbors would complain. You have to be respectful of your neighbors. I know sometimes when you start singing praises to God you get overwhelmed and you take it to a whole new level. You have no idea how loud you are being and you are not aware of what surrounds you. You are praising God and nothing else matters! You are lost in that moment and that moment only! I really enjoy listening to people singing and praising God. It is such a wonderful feeling. I certainly wouldn't complain about the music but there are people who would and there are also people who like to complain about everything!

 

[Darrell C]

I hope a follow-up might come when it is determined whether they are actually guilty of the charge or not. It seems in the article the church denies actually doing it, and for the time being, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe the complainant doesn't know how to tell time. lol


God bless.

 

[heisrisen]

I agree, it's disrespectful to not think of the welfare of the people around you especially going on until 2 in the morning. That's ridiculous.

 

[Darrell C]

I agree, it's disrespectful to not think of the welfare of the people around you especially going on until 2 in the morning. That's ridiculous.

True. No-one likes to kept from sleep. I have my suspicions, though, that it was a rival church trying to get them in trouble...

Just kidding, lol.


God bless.

 

[John Public]

Institutionalized churches are about business, not Christ.
This is much like an advertising campaign, all centric around the gospel of ME.
As a musician, classically trained on the violin, we study volume to a nauseating extent. Perhaps I'm one of the sick souls who finds it fascinating. It has rendered me hypersensitive hearing; in a quiet room one can hear the electricity pulsing in the wires in a wall. Listening to excessively loud (and playing it) music has caused tinnitus
in both ears. Very common among musicians.
Brother Bach was deaf so we can make it work if need be.

We have three main volumes:
•Forte, loud.
•Mezzoforte, medium to moderately loud. Alternatively, it means middle-soft when applied to the opposite.
•Piano, softly.
The suffix "-issmio" denotes like "-ito", "-ita" in Spanish, so
fortissimo means "extra loud". Successive additions denote greater loudness or softness, i.e., pianississimo means to play extra softly.

A devilish rock concert or a landing plane generates enough dB to rupture the eardrums at ca 150-170 or even 190.
For a church to play that loudly means they are breaking the city's noise ordinances, hence the fine, and the apostolic command as seen in Peter, http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Peter-2-11_2-14/

Thusly, this church needs to repent. The fine is just as it is not discriminatory.

As well, there is not a scripture in the new testament allowing the playing if instruments while assembled.

While the primitive methodists were known for singing loud enough to cause headaches to passersby, as is evidenced in Spurgeon's conversion account, it is not in the Christian character to be so gaudy or rude.

 

[John Public]

No matter how prodigiously proficient one may be on any instrument, he cannot sing sound doctrine, as it is said,
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Colossians 3.16

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5.16.

I cannot declare what amazing grace has been shed on four strings, ever, irrespective of the tune's popularity.
I cannot proclaim about a fountain of blood drawn from Emmanuel's veins, or how great is God, or proclaim JESUS is on the mainline; call him up; tell him what you want.

Therefore this is a snare for the brethren because they will not know unless they know the lyrics; yet still still it becomes about the tones & pitched over psalms & praises.
David's instruments were cast our by God; from David's mouth flowed sweet scripture!

 

[Darrell C]

No matter how prodigiously proficient one may be on any instrument, he cannot sing sound doctrine, as it is said,
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Colossians 3.16

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5.16.

I cannot declare what amazing grace has been shed on four strings, ever, irrespective of the tune's popularity.
I cannot proclaim about a fountain of blood drawn from Emmanuel's veins, or how great is God, or proclaim JESUS is on the mainline; call him up; tell him what you want.

Therefore this is a snare for the brethren because they will not know unless they know the lyrics; yet still still it becomes about the tones & pitched over psalms & praises.
David's instruments were cast our by God; from David's mouth flowed sweet scripture!

Hello John, and welcome to the forum, I hope your time here will be blessed, and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.

I think I read in your other post you are a violinist? Your perspective would have fit well in a recent thread where music was discussed, in which the morality of music was in view. You can find that here if your interested in checking it out.

Again, welcome to the forum, it is my hope you will find your place in this community, and bless those here.


God bless.

 

[pwarbi]

You could also say that if the church did more to bring more members of the community into the service, there would be less people sat in their homes complaining about the noise.

Instead they'd be celebrating with the current congregation instead of ridiculing them and finding things to complain about.

 

[Darrell C]

You could also say that if the church did more to bring more members of the community into the service, there would be less people sat in their homes complaining about the noise.

Instead they'd be celebrating with the current congregation instead of ridiculing them and finding things to complain about.

And it could be someone took offense at someone from this church knocking on their door, lol.

I actually enjoy it when I get the chance to talk to people that go around witnessing. I have had some interesting discussions with people from many various groups, and while I may disagree with their theology often, I have to give them credit for their zeal.


God bless.

 

[John Public]

No matter how prodigiously proficient one may be on any instrument, he cannot sing sound doctrine, as it is said,

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Colossians 3.16

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5.16.


I cannot declare what amazing grace has been shed on four strings, ever, irrespective of the tune's popularity.
I cannot proclaim about a fountain of blood drawn from Emmanuel's veins, or how great is God, or proclaim JESUS is on the mainline; call him up; tell him what you want.

Hello John, and welcome to the forum, I hope your time here will be blessed, and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.

I think I read in your other post you are a violinist? Your perspective would have fit well in a recent thread where music was discussed, in which the morality of music was in view. You can find that here if your interested in checking it out.

Again, welcome to the forum, it is my hope you will find your place in this community, and bless those here.


God bless.

Darrell C.,

Musicians are a stingy bunch, and it is an open secret. Any musician who says otherwise is less honest than a trial lawyer on a crusade for "social justice".
Because of this oft-fickle nature I am very leary on a public board jumping into that, as it often can carry over live.

It is often easier to discuss the perils of zionist theology with a bunch of Baptists, why Israel was mostly white (britam. org), or why wine is not a sin; I even catch less hell defending serpent's seed (I may have to make a post about that one day with my eleven questions affirming it) or the Authorized Version (KJB).
Each of these in their own right is highly controversial; but music is often governed by the I, II, III, IV, & V Books of Opinions, those damned apocryphal texts!

I can literally set Amos 5 to meter; people will not listen.

However, that brotherly love continue, let's risk a gander.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C.,

Musicians are a stingy bunch, and it is an open secret. Any musician who says otherwise is less honest than a trial lawyer on a crusade for "social justice".

Not sure I would classify all musicians as stingy, as it has been my experience that while there is a difference between the musically inclined, they can be a distinctive bunch.

I found in the years I played music that on an average, personality kind of chose the instrument of the players. Lead singers and lead guitarists were generally arrogant, the bass player usually more reserved but still having a bit of an ego, and the drummer usually the most laid back person of the group.

But we just can't put people in a box, lol. I've actually known some very laid back guitarists in my time.

Because of this oft-fickle nature I am very leary on a public board jumping into that, as it often can carry over live.

I wouldn't worry about it, this is a debate and discussion forum, and the views of all, within reason, are generally open for discussion.

It is often easier to discuss the perils of zionist theology with a bunch of Baptists,

Are you a Baptist, John?

As far as Zionist Theology, I try to stick with what each individual believes and teaches. No point in my trying to debate an entire Theology System, particularly when most of the adherents are pretty uninformed about what that system actually teaches, lol.

why Israel was mostly white (britam. org),

Do you believe Israel was "mostly white?"

But I would agree, the mythology of the Ten Lost Tribes is a good discussion, as we can address some misconceptions some have promoted which is usually based in racism and hatred.

or why wine is not a sin;

Another good discussion. For myself, I do not view wine as a sin, but drunkenness.

I do not myself drink any form of alcohol, as I see no need for it. While I might understand some whiskey being used "medicinally," lol, the primary intent of drinking alcohol is to alter the state of the mind, which is something I see as contrary to our command to maintain self control and be in a sober frame of mind.

I don't see we need to receive soothing or comfort from a beverage when we have the Holy Ghost.

I even catch less hell defending serpent's seed (I may have to make a post about that one day with my eleven questions affirming it)

Now that is interesting. I would be curious as to how you "defend serpent's seed," John.

I would recommend this be the first thread on your agenda, lol. And keep in mind the Baptist Sections are for Baptists only, so if you are not a Baptist you will need to place your threads in "Other Denominations."

or the Authorized Version (KJB).

Another great discussion when the discussion is civil, but one that has the tendency for emotional response. The King James Only issue is one which I feel is best left alone, for the most part, because to be honest, while I would view a KJVonly view to be problematic, I have no problem with someone having a love for the Word of God, even if it is for a particular translation.

I myself prefer the KJV, but I don't argue with people that do not understand the Transmission Process, and have found that trying to explain Translation process is an issue someone is either ready for...or not.

Each of these in their own right is highly controversial;

That is true, but hey, that's what we are here for, right?

To discuss and debate those issues which divide the Body of Christ.

but music is often governed by the I, II, III, IV, & V Books of Opinions, those damned apocryphal texts!

Never heard of them.

I can literally set Amos 5 to meter; people will not listen.

I will usually listen to anything, lol, though sometimes what we hear may have underlying issues that present themselves.

In regards to music, some see that music itself can be corrupted.

However, that brotherly love continue, let's risk a gander.

And as long as we maintain brotherly love, there should be no reason why any of these issues could not be discussed, in my view.

The division in the Body is never going to be settled unless it is settled on a Doctrinal level.

But we also understand Doctrine divides, and sometimes people are not really at a point where they can benefit from Doctrinal Discussion.

I am trying to make today my last day here, so not sure I will get the chance to engage in discussion with you, but, I would be curious to see you "defend serpent's seed."


God bless.

 

[John Public]

Not sure I would classify all musicians as stingy, as it has been my experience that while there is a difference between the musically inclined, they can be a distinctive bunch.

I found in the years I played music that on an average, personality kind of chose the instrument of the players. Lead singers and lead guitarists were generally arrogant, the bass player usually more reserved but still having a bit of an ego, and the drummer usually the most laid back person of the group.

But we just can't put people in a box, lol. I've actually known some very laid back guitarists in my time.




I wouldn't worry about it, this is a debate and discussion forum, and the views of all, within reason, are generally open for discussion.




Are you a Baptist, John?

As far as Zionist Theology, I try to stick with what each individual believes and teaches. No point in my trying to debate an entire Theology System, particularly when most of the adherents are pretty uninformed about what that system actually teaches, lol.




Do you believe Israel was "mostly white?"

But I would agree, the mythology of the Ten Lost Tribes is a good discussion, as we can address some misconceptions some have promoted which is usually based in racism and hatred.




Another good discussion. For myself, I do not view wine as a sin, but drunkenness.

I do not myself drink any form of alcohol, as I see no need for it. While I might understand some whiskey being used "medicinally," lol, the primary intent of drinking alcohol is to alter the state of the mind, which is something I see as contrary to our command to maintain self control and be in a sober frame of mind.

I don't see we need to receive soothing or comfort from a beverage when we have the Holy Ghost.




Now that is interesting. I would be curious as to how you "defend serpent's seed," John.

I would recommend this be the first thread on your agenda, lol. And keep in mind the Baptist Sections are for Baptists only, so if you are not a Baptist you will need to place your threads in "Other Denominations."




Another great discussion when the discussion is civil, but one that has the tendency for emotional response. The King James Only issue is one which I feel is best left alone, for the most part, because to be honest, while I would view a KJVonly view to be problematic, I have no problem with someone having a love for the Word of God, even if it is for a particular translation.

I myself prefer the KJV, but I don't argue with people that do not understand the Transmission Process, and have found that trying to explain Translation process is an issue someone is either ready for...or not.




That is true, but hey, that's what we are here for, right?

To discuss and debate those issues which divide the Body of Christ.




Never heard of them.




I will usually listen to anything, lol, though sometimes what we hear may have underlying issues that present themselves.

In regards to music, some see that music itself can be corrupted.




And as long as we maintain brotherly love, there should be no reason why any of these issues could not be discussed, in my view.

The division in the Body is never going to be settled unless it is settled on a Doctrinal level.

But we also understand Doctrine divides, and sometimes people are not really at a point where they can benefit from Doctrinal Discussion.

I am trying to make today my last day here, so not sure I will get the chance to engage in discussion with you, but, I would be curious to see you "defend serpent's seed."


God bless.

As said in the other thread, 111jpublic@gmail.com. I am a primitive (original) Baptist. The other topics were but examples so it is needless getting into what would derail the post.
Hopefully my knowledge of music may help in this topic.

 

[Darrell C]

As said in the other thread, 111jpublic@gmail.com. I am a primitive (original) Baptist. The other topics were but examples so it is needless getting into what would derail the post.
Hopefully my knowledge of music may help in this topic.

I am just curious as to why you include your email address?

As far as derailing the thread, this...

Institutionalized churches are about business, not Christ.

...is probably the most relevant statement made.

Do you feel that the primary issue in the OP is that the church in view is just about business, seeing they are institutionalized?

Do you have a local assembly you are a part of John?


God bless.

 

[StFrancis]

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