Church Discipline

[donnA]

she was never an official member of the church to start with.

what is an offical member compared to a nonoffical member?

1Co 5:2 ........... Let him who has done this be removed from among you
snip
It is clear in scripture that the church has the responsibility and the God given authority to expel those caught in practicing sin.
snip
Scripture does not allow for them simply to be removed from church positions and to simply attend services. They are in fact to be completely removed from fellowship from the church inside or out. Paul moves forward to expand the list but it is not necessarily meant to be exhaustive.

sadly too many churches will not take responsability, they prefer to ignor scripture in support of sin lifestlyes.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have a question about my church. We had one of the members accept a contract from the Church to do some work. However, he started "hitting" problems and began charging the church over twice the cost of the original bid. He never completed the work because the Church voted to have another contractor finish it. Now here is the strange part (and one I'm wondering about). The very same year he is nominated for deacon. Some of the people are obviously outraged that this occured and the Pastor during a business meeting told us to forgive the man. The man never apoligized to the church for having acted deceptively. His name was on the ballot and he became a deacon. How should chuch discipline be involved in this case? I'm ruffled by it. I was asked to be a deacon but turned it down because I don't regularily tithe 10% and think it would be a bad example to the other church members.

 

[saturneptune]

I have a question about my church. We had one of the members accept a contract from the Church to do some work. However, he started "hitting" problems and began charging the church over twice the cost of the original bid. He never completed the work because the Church voted to have another contractor finish it. Now here is the strange part (and one I'm wondering about). The very same year he is nominated for deacon. Some of the people are obviously outraged that this occured and the Pastor during a business meeting told us to forgive the man. The man never apoligized to the church for having acted deceptively. His name was on the ballot and he became a deacon. How should chuch discipline be involved in this case? I'm ruffled by it. I was asked to be a deacon but turned it down because I don't regularily tithe 10% and think it would be a bad example to the other church members.

The way to stop him from being a deacon was for the church to elect someone else. As far as church discipline goes for "acting deceptively", again, it falls to the church congregation. Maybe in the future your church should base work done to the church on the ability of the person that is hired, and not on church membership. There is one man in our church I would trust without question to do any remodeling work, but it is because of his ability, not because he is a member.

You said the pastor told everyone to forgive him. However, the pastor does not have the power to select deacons. It is up to your congregation to do their duty. If not, the church reaps what it sows.

 

[annsni]

I have a question about my church. We had one of the members accept a contract from the Church to do some work. However, he started "hitting" problems and began charging the church over twice the cost of the original bid. He never completed the work because the Church voted to have another contractor finish it. Now here is the strange part (and one I'm wondering about). The very same year he is nominated for deacon. Some of the people are obviously outraged that this occured and the Pastor during a business meeting told us to forgive the man. The man never apoligized to the church for having acted deceptively. His name was on the ballot and he became a deacon. How should chuch discipline be involved in this case? I'm ruffled by it. I was asked to be a deacon but turned it down because I don't regularily tithe 10% and think it would be a bad example to the other church members.

So a thief and swindler became a deacon? Interesting. Yeah - forgive but what he's done disqualifies him as per Scripture:

1 Timothy 3:8-14

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So a thief and swindler became a deacon? Interesting. Yeah - forgive but what he's done disqualifies him as per Scripture:

1 Timothy 3:8-14

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."

I agree and I'm miffed about it. The pastor doesn't seem to care and is able to say well, the church did it. I think there should have been some proper leadership from the other deacons as well. BTW he got the bid because he was the lowest bidder.

 

[annsni]

I agree and I'm miffed about it. The pastor doesn't seem to care and is able to say well, the church did it. I think there should have been some proper leadership from the other deacons as well. BTW he got the bid because he was the lowest bidder.

Of course he's the lowest bidder. We've learned not to always go with the lowest bidder. What's interesting is that we just did a 25,000 square foot addition to the church and many of the men who did any of the contracting work said that they'd NEVER cheat a church because God would "get them". They were afraid of God but a believer wouldn't be? That's sad.

In our church, when it comes time to vote for deacons, all of the men's names are put onto the ballot and each member votes. Once the votes come in and are tallied, the deacons and pastors go through the list of the top nominations and decide if these men are qualified or not (beyond the qualifications of being a member of the church). There have been times that the pastors/deacons know of a situation that the congregation doesn't know about and will disqualify a man that was voted on because of that information. This could be from marital problems, private counseling stuff (not that the information is given out but just "Trust me - they're not equipped right now to serve."). Just because the church voted on someone doesn't mean they're qualified and if they pastors/deacons see any reason they should not serve, their name should be removed quietly.

 

[Salamander]

I disagree. I go to church to worship corporately with other like minded believers, not to be "under their authority". Although once a member of a particular church does mean that I am expected to be under the authority of Christ.

Then you would also agree with God calling a pastor with deacons to make up the edlers of the church to carry out church discipline according to the Bible.

It all has to do with the order of accountability, not whether we agree with one another.

I see nothing in the NT scriptures speaking of church "membership" or "church" roles in the sense that we speak of it today. Our membership rules are a modern invention. What I see in the writings of Paul is that all were "members" of Christ's church, but gathered in local assemblies to worship, which we call the local church. Once a part of the local assembly they were subject to the rules of church discipline as outlined by the Lord Himself. There is no evidence that a person required permission to leave the local assembly or even the body of Christ. If they chose to leave the church and go back into the world, they were not true believers, as John has said:

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



I am NOT defending the woman in this story.

You make mention of Scripture in error to the situation at hand.

This woman subjected herself to be under the authority of the local church. She is under that authority and accountable to that congregation as part of the local church.

You should re-read I and II Corinthians again.

 

[Salamander]

Yes and no, one removes them self by ceasing fellowship.

From fellowship, not accountability as being on the role.

 

[Navymans]

The Church needs to let it go she says she quit the Church so all they have to do is remove her from the roll, if they continue with this they stand a chance of hurting their Church more than not. God will deal with this woman in his own time also let the first one without sin cast the first stone. I get the feeling their is more going on here than meets the eye.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Church needs to let it go she says she quit the Church so all they have to do is remove her from the roll, if they continue with this they stand a chance of hurting their Church more than not. God will deal with this woman in his own time also let the first one without sin cast the first stone. I get the feeling their is more going on here than meets the eye.

Maybe we should just follow scripture instead.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Of course he's the lowest bidder. We've learned not to always go with the lowest bidder. What's interesting is that we just did a 25,000 square foot addition to the church and many of the men who did any of the contracting work said that they'd NEVER cheat a church because God would "get them". They were afraid of God but a believer wouldn't be? That's sad.

In our church, when it comes time to vote for deacons, all of the men's names are put onto the ballot and each member votes. Once the votes come in and are tallied, the deacons and pastors go through the list of the top nominations and decide if these men are qualified or not (beyond the qualifications of being a member of the church). There have been times that the pastors/deacons know of a situation that the congregation doesn't know about and will disqualify a man that was voted on because of that information. This could be from marital problems, private counseling stuff (not that the information is given out but just "Trust me - they're not equipped right now to serve."). Just because the church voted on someone doesn't mean they're qualified and if they pastors/deacons see any reason they should not serve, their name should be removed quietly.

I personally would have been fine with that and would have let the matter dropped unfortunately there would have been some women who may have gossipped but I stay far away from them. Ok I'm done my rant now. Even if I get to the point of tithing properly a hundred percent of the time. I don't think I would accept a deacon nomination. The position has been tarnished and I never really see them (deacons) active anyway. I'll continue visiting people in hospitals, helping the elderly in our church, leading a small group, and a multitude of other things I already do. I don't need to be a deacon to minister and frankly its the people who aren't deacons that are the back bone of the church services. And in the end maybe thats as it should be.

 

[donnA]

I personally would have been fine with that and would have let the matter dropped unfortunately there would have been some women who may have gossipped but I stay far away from them. Ok I'm done my rant now. Even if I get to the point of tithing properly a hundred percent of the time. I don't think I would accept a deacon nomination. The position has been tarnished and I never really see them (deacons) active anyway. I'll continue visiting people in hospitals, helping the elderly in our church, leading a small group, and a multitude of other things I already do. I don't need to be a deacon to minister and frankly its the people who aren't deacons that are the back bone of the church services. And in the end maybe thats as it should be.

Prehaps you could be the deacon who makes a difference(if you were one of course). Don't say no without lots of prayer. Sounds like your already doing the work of a deacon, but without the title. As a deacon you could set an example that may make a difference.

 

[donnA]

The Church needs to let it go she says she quit the Church so all they have to do is remove her from the roll, if they continue with this they stand a chance of hurting their Church more than not. God will deal with this woman in his own time also let the first one without sin cast the first stone. I get the feeling their is more going on here than meets the eye.

If obedience to the word of God hurts this church then so be it, the alternative is disobedience. Who do we seek to please, men or God? We can not please God with purposeful (or anyother) disobedience.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Prehaps you could be the deacon who makes a difference(if you were one of course). Don't say no without lots of prayer. Sounds like your already doing the work of a deacon, but without the title. As a deacon you could set an example that may make a difference.

The pastor says he'll keep asking and will do so next year. I guess I'll pray about it but still don't think I'm a good enough example.

 

[donnA]

From fellowship, not accountability as being on the role.

:thumbs:



on a side note;
we need one of those little smilies holding a sign thats says amen.

 

[Revmitchell]

:thumbs:



on a side note;
we need one of those little smilies holding a sign thats says amen.

 

[donnA]

Thats The One!

 

[annsni]

In the majority of churches, it takes a process to join and become a member. In our church, they must attend a class, give their testimony, be baptized if they are not already and then be voted in by the church.

Does one leave a church just by saying "I'm out of here."? Is that enough? Just because they don't feel like being disciplined are they no longer under the authority of the church leaders? Or should it be that they formally leave the church and THEN the church leaves them alone?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

In the majority of churches, it takes a process to join and become a member. In our church, they must attend a class, give their testimony, be baptized if they are not already and then be voted in by the church.

Does one leave a church just by saying "I'm out of here."? Is that enough? Just because they don't feel like being disciplined are they no longer under the authority of the church leaders? Or should it be that they formally leave the church and THEN the church leaves them alone?

Thats a good point. How then should they leave the Church appropiately? Write a document of seperation?

 

[Amy.G]

In the majority of churches, it takes a process to join and become a member. In our church, they must attend a class, give their testimony, be baptized if they are not already and then be voted in by the church.

Does one leave a church just by saying "I'm out of here."? Is that enough? Just because they don't feel like being disciplined are they no longer under the authority of the church leaders? Or should it be that they formally leave the church and THEN the church leaves them alone?

How exactly does a church discipline someone who has left and is not going to be coming back? Do the deacons camp out on their doorstep and wait for them to come out and then perform some sort of disciplinary action on them? 40 lashes maybe? I don't get it.