Church Elders

[Bro. James Reed]

Remember, I am not arguing that pastors don't need to to be ordained. I think they should be ordained. But it is possible to be an elder (legitimately) and not be ordained. Remember, ordination is not the stamp of God on someone. It is the judgment of the local body about the worthiness of an individual's life and doctrine to minister the word to the body. That body may be wrong in their judgment. Ordination is not foolproof. If a body refuses to ordain a man, I think that man needs to take it very seriously and should not continue to pursue vocational ministry without serious counsel and subsequent ordination.

Ahh, I think we finally hit some common ground. I think you making reference to what an Elder does before he is ordained. The Elder has the same responsibilities to preach and feed the flock, even before he is ordained (given the approval of the church body.) We would call this time as being licensed or at liberty. This is the time when the church has recognized his gift, and they feel he needs to practice this gift openly to different congregations and ministers to get a good report. Also, this would be the time when the man is, hopefully, becoming more grounded in the word and less of a novice.

Is that what you are getting at? I see what you are saying, though we use different terms to define this period of time.

Once he has been ordained, there is no magic that comes down and suddenly makes him able to preach. The ordination is the church's recognition of his gift and their support that he is grounded in the faith.

Also, other ministers sit in the presbytery because that is the way the Bible outlines it.

Paul says:

Titus 1:4 To Titus , mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

He told Titus to ordain elders. That tells me that Titus had to ordain them. Although the church is responsible for calling for the ordination of one from amongst themselves, other ministers have to sit in on his ordination.

Why? 1. to show support - a minister without support won't last long. 2. to see that the ordination is conducted in a biblical way.

In our ordinations, there is a questioning that goes on with the man. He is asked questions about the Bible, and he is expected to know the answers...to prove he's not a novice. He is also given a charge by another Elder as to what is expected of him. He is prayed over with the laying on of hands of the presbytery - not to give him powers

- to show their support and love for him.

Are we on the same page yet? I do see what you're saying now. (Finally)

I think we're pretty much in agreement, except for some areas. But, at least we've had some very fruitful discussion. It's nice to debate without resorting to dirty tricks, like the C/A board. Needless to say, it scares me to go there.

God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Pastor Larry]

Having just preached from Titus 1 (I am preaching 1:0-16 this week), I take the "ordain" to be better translated as the actual word, which means to arrange or set up. "Ordain" as we use it today does not seem to be what Paul meant by it. In a brand new church, Titus was supposed to arrange the method by which teh elders were chosen. He was to teach the church how to do this. He himself was not the "ordainer;" he was the "arranger" (kathistemi). The local church is the only body recognized by the NT and thus the only body that can ordain anyone. The presbyters (a group of ministers assembled at the pleasure and call of the local body) lays hands on as a symbolic gesture only with the approval of the congregation.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

The presbyters (a group of ministers assembled at the pleasure and call of the local body) lays hands on as a symbolic gesture only with the approval of the congregation.

Why are we arguing? I agree with this.

I think, at the root of everything, there is only one difference between us. You believe that the ordination, with other Elders, is not necessary and I believe it is.

God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Pastor Larry]

Sorry, I did not mean that to be argumentative. I was just making a statement about Titus 1 in teh broad picture. We probably agree more than we disagree on this.

 

[Speedpass]

Regarding "plurality of elders" what NT verses support this concept?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Orginally posted by KPBAP

Does your church have Elders? What are their responsibilities? Do you also have deacons?
Do you think more Baptist churches are electing Elders? If so, why and how do they function?

Let us consider that the root question is an open ended one as best as I can read it. The question does not specify that the term Elder be restricted to the Primitive Baptist definition and usage of the word.

Most of the churchs I fellowship with and have been a member of would define the term in a looser way than my Primitive Baptist brethren. We (Regular Baptists of the Northern persuasion) would hold that in general the term refers to any brother that is of a certain age and stage of Christian maturity. Specifically, we would say that the (senior) Pastor is the Elder. But then, many of us also don't ordain deacons. I suppose functionally the Deacons (and they are not the Board of) of my home church act as a plurality of elders. At times though, some of our elders are not serving as deacons. It's more of a question of who are the grey hairs.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

From what I gather as the sense of the question, I think that many churchs are turning to the presbyterian model of church government. I.e, governece is divided between the teaching elder and the ruling elders. Here, the pastor (the teaching elder) is simply the moderator of a church's session. He is not the Elder. This is problably a reaction to the monarchical system that has grown up in the last generation. Also, it sometimes based on the seeming fact that Baptist pastors think they are Methodist-Episcopalians changing churchs every five years or so. The pastor leaves and who is left to carry out the continuity of the work of God?