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church hopping and membership
- Thread starter abcgrad94
- Start date
Nodak, your examples are completely understandable, but not what I'm talking about in the OP. There is a big difference in church hopping simply for "variety" than attending occasionally elsewhere due to bad weather, needing a pianist, etc.
The church hopping I refer to is when churches are treated like a buffet where one can pick and choose without giving service, commitment, or accountability.
It's not fair to, and causes discouragement to those who ARE doing their part. I am expected to play the piano and attend every service, simply because I'm the preacher's wife. I don't get paid for that. It's my contribution to the worship. Why should I "be there" and contribute if others don't have to? Why should I continually pull my share when others simply want to take and not serve?
This is one reason why people in ministry get burned out--they are doing most of the work while those who are not committed come at leisure and contribute nothing. (Nodak, please note I'm NOT saying this about you personally. It is what I've observed in general.)
abcgrad94,
I appreciate your loving tone.
I believe that if you play the piano because you are the preacher's wife, it is time to quit.
The only reason you should play the piano, or be at every service, is because God has called you to do so.
You ask basically why you should have to work so hard when others do not, taking rather than serving.
You know this how? Can you see around the beam that well to see their splinter?
There is simply no way for you to know why they need that variety. You cannot know the different worship needs in their hearts or the needs of their families.
It may be they are burned out from too many times among too many legalists, and by hopping are able to serve and stay fed without being hauled on the carpet for not bowing to some demigod.
It may simply be that God has told them to do this, and in the freedom and competency of their own souls they are doing exactly that.
There was a time in my life when I thought the purpose of the church member was to be there and serve God through the local church.
I've come to believe the purpose of the local church is to be there and serve the member, enabling them to serve God in the world.
So God calls some people to be there every time the doors are open, providing that ministry. Others of us He calls to be out in the world. Some of those of us called out into the world may need that delicious buffet of variety of ways to worship, depending on what we have encountered that week or who we are ministering to that week.
If your job is to play that piano every week, God called, then you must do it. Whether ten are in attendance or a thousand. Whether you feel used or not is up to you, because every time you play it if God has called you to play it, He is there and He is pleased with your obedience.
BUT--He might not have called me to come hear it this week.
In my own personal opinion, it is better for each of us to obey God and do what He calls each of us to do than it is to spend time fussing and fuming when other folks are not running their spiritual lives the way we think they should.
Now as to burn out, I haven't seen that ever happen when each person was focused on minding God. Yes, some do more at the church. Some do more out of it. But nobody burns out just doing as God requires--at least not that I have seen.
I think burn out happens more when we are trying to do all those legalistic shoulds--we should do this, and that, and the other thing.
Maybe sometimes God let's us burn out so we get quiet and find out what HE expects us to do, and say no to the rest.
And maybe some folks hop to keep from getting caught in those nets of legalism. If all members are expected to be at church x number times a week, I might decide not to join.
That way, if I believe I need to stay home and tend to a child's needs, or run a sick parent to the dr, or just spend time with my husband it will be between me and the Lord and not have the "church folks" tsk tsking over my laxness.
It is indeed fair. Each of us is to do just what the Lord instructs, no more and no less.
I appreciate your loving tone.
I believe that if you play the piano because you are the preacher's wife, it is time to quit.
The only reason you should play the piano, or be at every service, is because God has called you to do so.
You ask basically why you should have to work so hard when others do not, taking rather than serving.
You know this how? Can you see around the beam that well to see their splinter?
There is simply no way for you to know why they need that variety. You cannot know the different worship needs in their hearts or the needs of their families.
It may be they are burned out from too many times among too many legalists, and by hopping are able to serve and stay fed without being hauled on the carpet for not bowing to some demigod.
It may simply be that God has told them to do this, and in the freedom and competency of their own souls they are doing exactly that.
There was a time in my life when I thought the purpose of the church member was to be there and serve God through the local church.
I've come to believe the purpose of the local church is to be there and serve the member, enabling them to serve God in the world.
So God calls some people to be there every time the doors are open, providing that ministry. Others of us He calls to be out in the world. Some of those of us called out into the world may need that delicious buffet of variety of ways to worship, depending on what we have encountered that week or who we are ministering to that week.
If your job is to play that piano every week, God called, then you must do it. Whether ten are in attendance or a thousand. Whether you feel used or not is up to you, because every time you play it if God has called you to play it, He is there and He is pleased with your obedience.
BUT--He might not have called me to come hear it this week.
In my own personal opinion, it is better for each of us to obey God and do what He calls each of us to do than it is to spend time fussing and fuming when other folks are not running their spiritual lives the way we think they should.
Now as to burn out, I haven't seen that ever happen when each person was focused on minding God. Yes, some do more at the church. Some do more out of it. But nobody burns out just doing as God requires--at least not that I have seen.
I think burn out happens more when we are trying to do all those legalistic shoulds--we should do this, and that, and the other thing.
Maybe sometimes God let's us burn out so we get quiet and find out what HE expects us to do, and say no to the rest.
And maybe some folks hop to keep from getting caught in those nets of legalism. If all members are expected to be at church x number times a week, I might decide not to join.
That way, if I believe I need to stay home and tend to a child's needs, or run a sick parent to the dr, or just spend time with my husband it will be between me and the Lord and not have the "church folks" tsk tsking over my laxness.
It is indeed fair. Each of us is to do just what the Lord instructs, no more and no less.
Very good analogy :applause:
Tom Butler
New Member
I have no doubt that some believe they are acting according to God's direction. I also have no doubt that some are also invoking "God told me" simply to deflect criticism. It is hard to argue with someone who says "God told me to do this."
But it did happen once.
One of my former pastors also taught homiletics at the nearby Bible College. He instructed each class member to prepare an expository sermon, and be ready to preach it in class. They would be graded on it.
One young man, who was in evangelism, instead preached a topical sermon. My pastor gave him an F. When he received the grade, he stormed into my pastor/professor's office, demanding to know why he got an F.
"Because the assignment was to preach an expository sermon and you preached a topical sermon."
"But God told me to preach that sermon," said the student.
My pastor replied: "And God told me to give you an F."
But it did happen once.
One of my former pastors also taught homiletics at the nearby Bible College. He instructed each class member to prepare an expository sermon, and be ready to preach it in class. They would be graded on it.
One young man, who was in evangelism, instead preached a topical sermon. My pastor gave him an F. When he received the grade, he stormed into my pastor/professor's office, demanding to know why he got an F.
"Because the assignment was to preach an expository sermon and you preached a topical sermon."
"But God told me to preach that sermon," said the student.
My pastor replied: "And God told me to give you an F."
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:laugh: I'm going to have to remember this story- it will come in handy.
My youngest son was 3 and we were driving back to town from a campground. We had gone ahead of the family to get things set up. Anyways, Brandon asked me, "God, how do you know is it God talking to you?" I was surprised that such a serious question would come from such a young man, but took advantage of the opportunity. Many people claim that God has told them to do something. However, when examined closely that simply is not possible. When we commit to knowing God's Word we will know His voice.
A simple test, God will not tell you to do anything contrary to what He has already told us in His Word. Church hopping does not pass this test. It is counter to what Scripture shows us about fellowship and how the Church functions.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Mont974x4 said:
Hold me accountable for what? Why would I need a preacher to hold me accountable when I have the Holy Spirit living within me?
Amy G said:
I'll tell you Amy, when I go looking for my next husband, I'm gonna stay living with the one I have already while I go "sampling". NOT! There is no comparison here. I'm not married to my local congregation. There is no scriptural basis for such an idea. And there is no natural guilt at my going from one church to another from Sunday to Sunday as there would be if I were going from man to man. You need to rethink your position.
The Bible says only "forsaking not the fellowship of them who love the Lord". I happen to do a great deal of this outside the church walls. Doing church in the manner we as 21st century Baptist do church is mere preference. We make up the rules that concern when/how often, where and a good deal of the how.
ABC, I understand your frustration. For many years I taught SS and Children's Church. What I found during those times was that there are very few who want to serve even for an hour a week. It takes time and, oh my, committment! Very few want to make that commitment. But,
It does very little good to complain about what others aren't doing. Mostly it only sinks us down to a lower level because anger and bitterness are heavy. We do what we do because *we* love the Lord. Other folks? Well they have lay up their own treasures becasue we can't do it for them.
I'm not one who believes that when a church hires a pastor they get the wife for free. If this is happening in your church, your husband needs to teach the congregation better. What would happen if you didn't show one Sunday to play that piano? Maybe your church needs an object lesson just along those lines and leading into a good sermon on service.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Yes, God gave us preachers to preach the gospel, teach and edify the Body.
Man made them into accountability partners because we'd rather have specific rules to follow than decide for ourselves whether what we are doing/planning to do lives up to the expectations Christ has for us. That is to love our God and love our neighbor as ourself.
Man made them into accountability partners because we'd rather have specific rules to follow than decide for ourselves whether what we are doing/planning to do lives up to the expectations Christ has for us. That is to love our God and love our neighbor as ourself.
What many pastors call church-hopping is very often just a desperate search for a church that has any depth to it. We finally had to settle after visiting numerous churches & finding them all equally shallow. I really don't think very many pastors are able to expound on the Scriptures because they themselves were taught what to believe & not how to study & interpret Scripture. They were trained in public speaking & guilt manipulation. Instead of blaming believers for not being satisfied with their churches, perhaps pastors should figure out why their churches aren't worth joining.
There is a reason why Bible-study centered home churches have become so prevalent; people are looking for more than three hymns & a shallow sermon. Many are starving for the meat of the Word & not finding it in the official institutions of religion which have become places of denominational conformity; not Biblical transformation.
(Hebrews 5:11-6:2)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6.1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6.2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
The sad truth is that many pastors are themselves merely unskilled babes spoon-feeding milk to other spiritual babes. Anyone can preach, that requires no great skill other than speaking in public. Any politician can do it. God requires that elders be "apt to teach", which is NOT synonymous with preaching sermons.
There is a reason why Bible-study centered home churches have become so prevalent; people are looking for more than three hymns & a shallow sermon. Many are starving for the meat of the Word & not finding it in the official institutions of religion which have become places of denominational conformity; not Biblical transformation.
(Hebrews 5:11-6:2)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6.1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6.2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
The sad truth is that many pastors are themselves merely unskilled babes spoon-feeding milk to other spiritual babes. Anyone can preach, that requires no great skill other than speaking in public. Any politician can do it. God requires that elders be "apt to teach", which is NOT synonymous with preaching sermons.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Go right ahead. It's a true story, told to me by my then-pastor.
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I ask the question, not in bitterness, not fussing or fuming about other people. On an internet forum like this, one cannot see facial expression and tone, only the black and white of the words. If my words convey a beam in my own eye, that is not my intention at all. My point of playing the piano was to serve as an illustration. People expect the pastor, pianist, and teachers to come and would be angry if we did not, yet it's okay for them not to be committed. I don't understand that.
The reason I ask is because many Christians seem to think that serving God is not a full-time commitment for them--only for those in ministry or in the church leadership. I want to know why so many Christians expect MORE of others than they do their own selves. We are fighting a war, yet it seems only certain ones of us are willing to give it 100%.
This is not healthy--not for the Christian who is "hopping around" with no accountability, and certainly not for the local church body.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm going to start a thread asking the question, "How do you know God is telling you to do something?"
At the same time, we can discuss how God speaks to us.
At the same time, we can discuss how God speaks to us.
There are two different subjects there. The one of church-hopping & to whom is the individual believer accountable? We are equal priests under Christ the High Priest with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Under the covenant of law, God's people were accountable to priests & judges. Many modern pastors are operating under the example of the old law; setting themselves as judges of God's people. Under the New & eternal Covenant, we are directly accountable to the Father through the Holy Spirit & written Word. One man cannot be the accountability for dozens or hundreds of people from a lectern. It is a ridiculous notion to think listening to three hymns & a sermon amounts to Biblical accountability.
Preaching cannot produce accountability; only guilt. The modern church is not structured to fulfill its Biblical purposes for existing. There is no exhortation, Biblical education, or spiritual maturing of the saints. We sit & listen to one man evangelize or pontificate while the spiritually starving are left unfed, the hurting are left unhelped, & the Body is left unequipped to minister to each other or to a dying world.
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You have some serious anger issues towards the local church and its pastors that you need to deal with.
Do pastors preach against sin because of anger issues? Neither do I. If I am angry, it is righteous anger at the condition of the church in America. If you believe I am wrong, then please state your case instead of attempting to marginalize me because I hate sin; inside & outside the church.
Tom Butler
New Member
I suspect a lot of us have heard of the Baptist church which advertised:
"if you're looking to join the perfect church, don't join this one. Then it won't be perfect anymore.
We don't have perfect pastors, either. Well, mine is pretty close.
"if you're looking to join the perfect church, don't join this one. Then it won't be perfect anymore.
We don't have perfect pastors, either. Well, mine is pretty close.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Tithing??? Why bring that up when discussing the New Testament church?
Tithing has no part in new covenant giving.
According to the scriptures we find....
Its free will giving in this new covenant dispensation.
There was a man marooned on a deserted Island for 13 years.
By chance one day, a ship came sailing by, noticed him and subsequently saved him from the island.
His rescuers couldn't help but notice this man had built several huts out of bamboo, scattered all along the beach. Two of them had crosses at the top!
, they asked the man what the hut was all about..., the one with the cross on top. His response was, "That is my church where I worship."
His rescuers then inquired as to what the other hut was all about..., the other one with a cross on top. His response, "Oh, that's the church I used to go to." :laugh::laugh::laugh:
By chance one day, a ship came sailing by, noticed him and subsequently saved him from the island.
His rescuers couldn't help but notice this man had built several huts out of bamboo, scattered all along the beach. Two of them had crosses at the top!
, they asked the man what the hut was all about..., the one with the cross on top. His response was, "That is my church where I worship."His rescuers then inquired as to what the other hut was all about..., the other one with a cross on top. His response, "Oh, that's the church I used to go to." :laugh::laugh::laugh: