Church is forbidden by Obama for his youth volunteers

[tinytim]

Well, 2 months into Obama's presidency and his antichristian tendencies are showing...

The bill he is pushing through forbids his youth volunteer corp to engage in religious activities...

HOW can a true Christian support this demon?!
Obama makes it clear he hates Christ.

Forbidding people to go to church???!!!!

Thank you all that voted for this spawn of Satan...

Way to destroy our country...

http://www.thevoicemagazine.com/politics/512-obama-youth-brigade-church-attendance-forbidden.html

Is this the change you really voted for? President Obama has only been in office for two months. Now we have HR 1388. The Bill was sponsored by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) with 37 others. The Bill was introduced to the floor of the House of Representatives where both Republicans and Democrats voted 321-105 in favor. Next it goes to the Senate for a vote and then on to President Obama.
This bill’s title is called “Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education” (GIVE). It forms what some are calling “Obama’s Youth Brigade.” Obama’s plan is require anyone receiving school loans and others to serve at least three months as part of the brigade. His goal is one million youth! This has serious Nazi Germany overtones to it.
The Bill would forbid any student in the brigade to participate in “engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.” That means no church attendance or witnessing.
Again, is this what America voted for? Here is part of the HR1388 Bill’s wording:
SEC. 1304. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
Section 125 (42 U.S.C. 12575) is amended to read as follows:
SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
(a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:
(1) Attempting to influence legislation.
(2) Organizing or engaging in protests, petitions, boycotts, or strikes.
…
(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.

 

[JustChristian]

Well, 2 months into Obama's presidency and his antichristian tendencies are showing...

The bill he is pushing through forbids his youth volunteer corp to engage in religious activities...

HOW can a true Christian support this demon?!
Obama makes it clear he hates Christ.

Forbidding people to go to church???!!!!

Thank you all that voted for this spawn of Satan...

Way to destroy our country...

http://www.thevoicemagazine.com/politics/512-obama-youth-brigade-church-attendance-forbidden.html

What's the difference in this and Bush's Faith-based services? They also didn't allow religious proselytization.

 

[tinytim]

And for those among us that want proof.. go here and read the bill yourself...

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/text

If a young person received money they may not engage in religious instruction...

And you democrats support this?

Explain to me again how someone can support a law that says people cannot worship if they recieve money from the government and still call themselves a Christian!!!

Anyone that supports this bill had better be on the altar and crying out to God to forgive their sorry soul!

 

[tinytim]

Read it JC.. and try to understand.. goodnight...

 

[windcatcher]

Constitutionallly this bill cannot censor religious participation nor free speech rights. It it seems to do so..... it can only control the activities during those times one is actively engaged in the 'volunteerism' for which they are getting credit. Much like kids and teachers in school: While engaged in a state sponsored educational activity or instruction, free speech and religious freedom is narrowly defined.... but between classes and free time on campus.... to the extent one is allowed to talk about anything.... or pass notes, show magazines or picture or pass invitations to parties..... students also have the right to witness, to proselytise (sp?) and pass scripture and tracts. Still it seems to make 'volunteerism' a requirement ....... a person should be allowed to get credit for their free choice of time volunteering in a church soup kitchen.... or a youth community clean -up project whether or not it is organized by a church or several church organizations.

 

[Steven2006]

Forbidding people to go to church???!!!!

(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.

I am not so sure that this is saying people can't attend church. It does sound like it would prohibit ministers or ordained evangelists from participating, and maybe even SS teachers ( would be interested for some clarification on that one).

 

[Salty]

.... but between classes and free time on campus.... to the extent one is allowed to talk about anything.... or pass notes, show magazines or picture or pass invitations to parties..... students also have the right to witness, to proselytise (sp?) and pass scripture and tracts. ...

I'm not too sure about that even. I may be wrong, but seems I've been told a teacher may not even have a Bible on her desk. That students may not pass religious literature on school grounds.

Back in the late '60's I was NOT permitted to put up a sign four our church youth group. Well, a month later I asked if I could put my sign next to the sign advertising the Catholic church youth dance! The Principal said "Well, you got me this time!"

So does anybody else have a story about having your free speech rights violated in public schools?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Well, 2 months into Obama's presidency and his antichristian tendencies are showing...

The bill he is pushing through forbids his youth volunteer corp to engage in religious activities...

HOW can a true Christian support this demon?!
Obama makes it clear he hates Christ.

Forbidding people to go to church???!!!!9/quote]

I doubt the bill says people cannot go to church to worship. But I agree that youth volunteer corp members should not be allowed to work in churches or mosques. After all, how would you feel if any of the youth in your church became members of the youth volunteer corp and were sent to a mosque or a Buddhist temple to work? I don't believe you would approve of that.

 

[billwald]

You all would not object if the proposed legislation permitted Christian and Islamic recruiting? How about Hindu and Rastafarian?

 

[SeekingTruth]

Constitutionallly this bill cannot censor religious participation nor free speech rights. It it seems to do so..... it can only control the activities during those times one is actively engaged in the 'volunteerism' for which they are getting credit. ...

Windcatcher, the current administration, and most of Congress, do not seem to realize that we have a constitution, or if they do it is just something more to ignore. Historically,Congress has used the empowerment clause to pass implementing legislation that strays far from the original intent of the law. It is just one small step from the wording of this act to fully restricting church attendance. Just look at the moves to take over much of the free enterprise system that has helped make this country strong. Does the name "Geithner" ring a bell?:tonofbricks:

 

[tinytim]

Ok... let's play this out...

Let's pretend I am young again.. (Big imagination here)
I sign up for Americorps... I am in the middle of my 3 month obligation and a Hurricane hits New Orleans again. A big hurricane... almost as big as Katrina.

I am called upon to go to help in the relief efforts...
Under this law, I will not be able to share my faith with those I am helping.

Suppose someone is hurting, and they are talking to me... I know Jesus is the answer, but because I am part of Americorps I cannot share this with them.

It says, "engage in religious instruction"... NOT "instructing" .. . a listener is "engaged" in religious instruction...

Part of being a Christian is sharing your faith... this bill prohibits sharing your faith while you are in the 3 month program...

Who here would trade their soul for a college education?

I hope this is challenged in court.. it clearly is unconstitutional.

My sons said, "$10,000 is not worth not telling people about Jesus."

Here is my question....

Suppose my hypothetical situation played out... would you speak about Jesus while in the Brigade?

Or would you obey the orders you agreed to?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Tim is spinning faster than a Duncan top. As has been pointed out, this is not a bit different than Bush's program. This is totally congruent with the fact that public money should not go to support religious proselytization. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. If a person is representing the USA, and he goes out acting as a missionary, it sends the message that the USA is about spreading the Christian religion, rather than helping folks. Churches send missionaries. Secular government sends official and unofficial ambassadors.

But then we wouldn't have the big scary Obama to blame for anything.

 

[Steven2006]

Ok... let's play this out...

Let's pretend I am young again.. (Big imagination here)
I sign up for Americorps... I am in the middle of my 3 month obligation and a Hurricane hits New Orleans again. A big hurricane... almost as big as Katrina.

I am called upon to go to help in the relief efforts...
Under this law, I will not be able to share my faith with those I am helping.

Suppose someone is hurting, and they are talking to me... I know Jesus is the answer, but because I am part of Americorps I cannot share this with them.

It says, "engage in religious instruction"... NOT "instructing" .. . a listener is "engaged" in religious instruction...

Part of being a Christian is sharing your faith... this bill prohibits sharing your faith while you are in the 3 month program...

Who here would trade their soul for a college education?

I hope this is challenged in court.. it clearly is unconstitutional.

My sons said, "$10,000 is not worth not telling people about Jesus."

Here is my question....

Suppose my hypothetical situation played out... would you speak about Jesus while in the Brigade?

Or would you obey the orders you agreed to?

Sorry Tim, I think you are reading more into it than there is. I think what it is saying is that you can't be in active leadership in a church or organization that is "primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization", and still take part in this program. I don't see anything that restricts one from attending church. or restricting anyone from sharing their faith on a personal level.

I am no fan of Obama. but I think overacting to, or stretching the accuracy of his actions only diminishes the very legitimate arguments there are to be made against him.

 

[abcgrad94]

I don't see anything that restricts one from attending church. or restricting anyone from sharing their faith on a personal level.

Sharing your faith can be considered a form of proselytizing.

 

[tinytim]

I seriously hope I am wrong...

but we will see.

 

[Salty]

Sorry Tim, I think you are reading more into it than there is. I think what it is saying is that you can't be in active leadership in a church or organization that is "primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization", and still take part in this program. .

And that is the problem! Why doesnt the law spell it out. So if Tim was to share the Gospel with someone, he just might be fired. He then goes to court - oh what if we have a liberal court...

 

[Steven2006]

Sharing your faith can be considered a form of proselytizing.

Yes but if you read the wording in context, it is talking about people in leadership of groups that do that.

 

[Steven2006]

And that is the problem! Why doesnt the law spell it out. So if Tim was to share the Gospel with someone, he just might be fired. He then goes to court - oh what if we have a liberal court...

He wouldn't be fired from his job, but as a minister he would not be eligible to be involved in this program.

 

[tinytim]

Yes but if you read the wording in context, it is talking about people in leadership of groups that do that.

Please explain... I don't see where it says leaderships of groups.. I see where it says any participant is prohibited...

It is a 3 month program.. and it clearly says they are prohibited from proselytizing.. (witnessing, sharing faith, etc.. that is the core of our Christianity.. )...

So for 3 months the people that join this Brigade will be prohibited from witnessing to people.

This is what I see. Would you go for 3 months without trying to witness for Jesus if the Gov told you to?



As for those of you that say this is the same thing Bush had, do you have a link so I can compare?

I would understand it if it were worded that "engaging in religious instruction" was prohibited as one of the functions of the Brigade ...

But that is not what it says... it points the crosshairs on the participants... While in this program, they are prohibited...

NO where does it say it is limited ONLY to specific duties.... or assignments...

I would understand if it said no assignment could help religious causes.. I would support that..

 

[Crabtownboy]

Please explain... I don't see where it says leaderships of groups.. I see where it says any participant is prohibited...

It is a 3 month program.. and it clearly says they are prohibited from proselytizing.. (witnessing, sharing faith, etc.. that is the core of our Christianity.. )...

So for 3 months the people that join this Brigade will be prohibited from witnessing to people.

This is what I see. Would you go for 3 months without trying to witness for Jesus if the Gov told you to?

My guess is the intent is that when they are on the job they are not to proselytize. But they will not be on the job 24/7. The company I worked for would not have looked favorably on a Hindu, Moslem, or a Christian proselytizing others ... and I agree with that policy. We could and did have noon Bible studies, but it was only for those who wanted to attend. And no one tried to proselytize others. Before or after work was another ball game.

If you want to have real management problems let people from several religious work together and allow them to proselytize each other and others in the group. That would be a real can of worms. My guess is that few on this board would take kindly to a Hindu, Moslem, etc. trying to proselytize them at work ... or anywhere else.

Before taking a strong stance in this area we have to consider that we would have to allow or deny the same privilege to all in the group.