Church is forbidden by Obama for his youth volunteers

[tinytim]

The government controlled what I did off duty when I worked for DHHR..
I had to agree to certain things I would not do as an employee of the State.

Like I posted earlier.

 

[donnA]

It means you can't engage in these practices while doing official Americore duties and representing the Government. You are free to worship and teach when off duty. Freedom of religion is protected by the constitution but their concern is separation of Church and state while you are acting in an official capacity.

it doesn't say while doing offical anything, if you are a part of the obamasquade, you don't go to church and worship.

 

[windcatcher]

Safeguards on faith-based organizations

Faith-based organizations are eligible to participate in federally administered social service programs to the same degree as any other group, although certain restrictions on FBOs that accept government funding have been created by the White House to protect separation of church and state.

* They may not use direct government funds to support inherently religious activities such as prayer, worship, religious instruction, or proselytization.
* Any inherently religious activities that the organizations may offer must be offered separately in time or location from services that receive federal assistance.
* FBOs cannot discriminate on the basis of religion when providing services (GAO 2006:13[3]).

I don't know what the current status is but it is my understanding that Angel Food Ministries was a recipient of some funds which helped in the purchase and distribution of food to impoverished and borderline persons who might not qualify for food assistance and help: A faith based organization participated in setting up a cooperative bulk food purchase program and organizing distribution centers across the country.

Funds from food purchases by customers coupled with government grants or reimbusement through food program participants helps to pay for the cost of transportation (refrigerated trucking) and the food. Volunteers are utilized for taking orders for food boxes, collecting money from customers making purchases and food stamps from participants in WIC programs, for breaking down the palletized food, for setting up and breaking down the distribution points.

Churches volunteer their facilities for a one or two days a month distribution centers or make arrangements with a more secular distribution place and help organize the volunteers... which may or may not be Christians. Some volunteers may be recipients of disability checks who haven't the means or strength to give to a regular routine or job... but can expend a few hours to help with the distribution; volunteers who help with the distribution... volunteers who also use their food stamps to purchase food of a quality and quantity which they could not get for a comparable price in a local store.

While the ministry is not allowed to actively proselytize, still they print up an order sheet for the next month's anticipated boxed items with other special offers .... which are more of a luxury food offering such as steak packages or gourmet coffees or nuts.... which are pricey and may not make the food stamp program... but offer families who economize a more reasonably priced indulgence for table or gifts than they would have from the local markets. The ministry also prints a magazine like folder which offers tips on health, meal planning, spiritual encouragement, and the plan of salvation. These may be dropped into the boxes or freely offered as participants pick up their orders. Government funds do not go to the printing of the magazine... nor to the volunteers or the distribution centers for their facilities.

If one is a participant of any program ..... like through a medical clinic, out-patient counseling service, organizations for AIDs victims, food stamp programs, soup kitchens, other charitable organizations and social services programs, Catholic charities, Waterfront missions, shelters, Salvation Army..... chances are, if there is an Angel Food distribution center in their area.... then they are referred to the availability of this service by out reach literature advertising this cooperative food program.

While a person has no choice regarding the content of the box...... what is ordered and filled with is usually of significant value savings from the prices paid in the stores for the same products. The fact that for everyone who is not in a food stamp program or on emergency voucher system, is still able to benefit by signing up for the next months order and prepaying, makes this program available to more people who might benefit from the savings and variety without qualifying for food stamps. The only obligation after that is to show up on time on the appointed day to pick up your own food, or send your receipt showing payment so a friend can pick it up for you. Any orders made but not picked up are distributed to Food Kitchens, or Loaves and Fishes... and other similar programs for the feeding of the poor..... so the food is not wasted. There is no qualification to volunteer ......other than being cooperative, sober, and descent in behavior while at the distribution site. While some church information or witness might appear on a bullentin board accessible to the public... this is not made a focal point in the arrangement of the distribution.

I don't see the confusion of religion and state in such instances as this. It can be a Christian witness.... but this is more coincidental except for the offering of facilities and the organization of volunteers and paid workers in the central offices of organization.

 

[windcatcher]

it doesn't say while doing offical anything, if you are a part of the obamasquade, you don't go to church and worship.

When attending a class in a public school, one is not attending a worship service. When working a secular job, one is selling their labor and time to the boss to do what he wants.... not to spend it witnessing to customers or calling folks on their prayer list.

Even volunteers have some personal 'down' time from their duties: If they would be allowed to talk about home... about tv episodes, about sports... food... clothes they like or don't.... they can also talk about Jesus.... as long as it is not during their 'on the clock' time: That means break time, lunch time, after hours time is theirs to do what they want: Religion is part of free speech... and when they are not acting in their official capacity, they have the right to talk to each other as they would under any other normal conditions.

They do not have the right to harrass a person. But this means a person who doesn't want to hear their witness must speak up for himself...... and a person should respect their wish. However, just because someone is offended doesnot give the offended party the right to stop the free speech between the Christian and another person ....or to interfere with their conversation.

A gray area may be when a person is either in a uniform or dress which denotes acting in an official capacity.... or is in an official capacity .... such as a teacher at school who students recognize as being a teacher.... then using the opportunities of their job or their position of authority to give spiritual counsel or witness to those who are 'hostage' to their role ..... it is an unfair position and is not allowed.

However, to the extent teachers have the freedom to discuss other secular matters not related to instruction with other teachers in the teachers lounge... they also have free speech rights concerning religious expression with or in the presence of each other if they so choose. If someone is offended and voices their offense then the teacher should respect that person and not prevail with their witness to that person: If however that person is offended because of ease dropping on a conversation occurring between two Christian teachers or a Christian and a non-Christian about religious themes, the offended party has no rights or privilege concerning that which is overheard... as occurring in a teachers lounge or place where students are not present... as in an office.

The important thing is.... if one knows when they have rights and when they don't.... then knowing the guidelines gives them the knowledge they need to exercise their freedoms when permitted and to be responsible that they stay within the guidelines which would nullify a charge against them.

Whatever the purpose of the courts or litigation may appear to mean..... the important thing to remember is that the state has no right to present itself in a position of authority as representing or promoting any religion or giving advantage to any over another: As the state does not have the right to impose a religion..... neither does it have the right to prevent the individuals right to religious expression during times when that person is not actively engage in hours of work representing the state.

 

[Crabtownboy]

When attending a class in a public school, one is not attending a worship service. When working a secular job, one is selling their labor and time to the boss to do what he wants.... not to spend it witnessing to customers or calling folks on their prayer list.

Even volunteers have some personal 'down' time from their duties: If they would be allowed to talk about home... about tv episodes, about sports... food... clothes they like or don't.... they can also talk about Jesus.... as long as it is not during their 'on the clock' time: That means break time, lunch time, after hours time is theirs to do what they want: Religion is part of free speech... and when they are not acting in their official capacity, they have the right to talk to each other as they would under any other normal conditions.

They do not have the right to harrass a person. But this means a person who doesn't want to hear their witness must speak up for himself...... and a person should respect their wish. However, just because someone is offended doesnot give the offended party the right to stop the free speech between the Christian and another person ....or to interfere with their conversation.

A gray area may be when a person is either in a uniform or dress which denotes acting in an official capacity.... or is in an official capacity .... such as a teacher at school who students recognize as being a teacher.... then using the opportunities of their job or their position of authority to give spiritual counsel or witness to those who are 'hostage' to their role ..... it is an unfair position and is not allowed.

However, to the extent teachers have the freedom to discuss other secular matters not related to instruction with other teachers in the teachers lounge... they also have free speech rights concerning religious expression with or in the presence of each other if they so choose. If someone is offended and voices their offense then the teacher should respect that person and not prevail with their witness to that person: If however that person is offended because of ease dropping on a conversation occurring between two Christian teachers or a Christian and a non-Christian about religious themes, the offended party has no rights or privilege concerning that which is overheard... as occurring in a teachers lounge or place where students are not present... as in an office.

The important thing is.... if one knows when they have rights and when they don't.... then knowing the guidelines gives them the knowledge they need to exercise their freedoms when permitted and to be responsible that they stay within the guidelines which would nullify a charge against them.

Whatever the purpose of the courts or litigation may appear to mean..... the important thing to remember is that the state has no right to present itself in a position of authority as representing or promoting any religion or giving advantage to any over another: As the state does not have the right to impose a religion..... neither does it have the right to prevent the individuals right to religious expression during times when that person is not actively engage in hours of work representing the state.

Good post, thanks. We must always remember any right that we want for ourself we must also be willing to give to others.

 

[LadyEagle]

Tim, I think you are right dead on. This is a slippery slope if nothing else.

Let me see if I have this straight. Say my kid needs financial aid to go to college. He gets financial aid from the govt. Now it is mandatory for him to serve 3 months (as a volunteer). Does he get to pick & choose which form of community service he will sign up for? Can he still attend church or participate in church youth activities during those 3 months? Can he still witness to his friends during those 3 months? What if he is a SS teacher or a youth leader or teaches in Awana or VBS....can he do that during those 3 months? Can he still witness to people and participate in mission trips during those 3 months? What if he plays guitar or sings in the choir, can he stil do that during those 3 months?

Do I have the facts straight? Tell me where I have gone wrong based on the wording of this bill.

 

[LeBuick]

Tim, I think you are right dead on. This is a slippery slope if nothing else.

Do I have the facts straight? Tell me where I have gone wrong based on the wording of this bill.

Actually Tim couldn't have been more wrong, now that I read his post closer, these conditions are for organizations and not individuals. Again, freedom of religion is protected by the constitution which would have to be amended before the government can make any law to the contrary. Look closely at the sections titles...

SEC. 1304. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
Section 125 (42 U.S.C. 12575) is amended to read as follows:
SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

 

[tinytim]

Look again... "A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:"

If you read on in section 1304, it lists the ineligible organizations.. I just didn't post that part.. but I will. I will post the whole section.. give me a minute.

 

[tinytim]

<B>

SEC. 1304. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
Section 125 (42 U.S.C. 12575) is amended to read as follows:

‘SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

• 
  ‘(a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:
  
  • 
    ‘(1) Attempting to influence legislation.
    ‘(2) Organizing or engaging in protests, petitions, boycotts, or strikes.
  • ‘(3) Assisting, promoting, or deterring union organizing.
    ‘(4) Impairing existing contracts for services or collective bargaining agreements.
    ‘(5) Engaging in partisan political activities, or other activities designed to influence the outcome of an election to any public office.2
    ‘(6) Participating in, or endorsing, events or activities that are likely to include advocacy for or against political parties, political platforms, political candidates, proposed legislation, or elected officials.
    ‘(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.
    ‘(8) Providing a direct benefit to--
    
    • 
      ‘(A) a business organized for profit;
      ‘(B) a labor organization;‘(C) a partisan political organization;
      ‘(D) a nonprofit organization that fails to comply with the restrictions contained in section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 except that nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent participants from engaging in advocacy activities undertaken at their own initiative; and‘
    • 
      (E) an organization engaged in the religious activities described in paragraph (7), unless Corporation assistance is not used to support those religious activities.
      ‘(9) Conducting a voter registration drive or using Corporation funds to conduct a voter registration drive.‘(10) Such other activities as the Corporation may prohibit.
      ‘(b) Ineligible Organizations- No assistance provided under this subtitle may be provided to the following types of organizations (including the participation of a participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle in activities conducted by such organizations) or to organizations that are co-located on the same premises as the following organizations:
      
      ‘(1) Organizations that provide or promote abortion services, including referral for such services.
  • ‘(2) For-profit organizations, political parties, labor organizations, or organizations engaged in political or legislative advocacy.
    
    ‘(3) Organizations that have been indicted for voter fraud.
    ‘(c) Nondisplacement of Employed Workers or Other Volunteers- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not perform any services or duties or engage in activities which--
    
    ‘(1) would otherwise be performed by an employed worker as part of his or her assigned duties as an employee or by another volunteer who is not a participant in an approved national service position; or
  • ‘(2) will supplant the hiring of employed workers or work of such other volunteers.’.

</B>

• http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/text

As you can see, the title is PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

Because this section deals with BOTH PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES (section a)
AND
INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS. (section b)

IOWs, 2 different things.. so no Lebuick, I am not wrong.

 

[windcatcher]

<B></B>

• http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/text

As you can see, the title is PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

Because this section deals with BOTH PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES (section a)
AND
INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS. (section b)

IOWs, 2 different things.. so no Lebuick, I am not wrong.

I understand you are concerned about whether or not religious freedom is infringed.... but I don't understand your alarm from the reading of this:

I agree...... if I'm trading my time as a 'volunteer' in a needed service for which I will receive a type of reward or compensation in forms such as credit towards cost of tuition or school credits for work..... Then during the hours I'm working as a 'volunteer' under the authority of the government.... I should not be expected to help a political candidate in his campaign, or screen people and selectively register voters according to profiles, or engage in protests whether against businesses, organizations or the government, or use government time to witness and go to church, or to do the labors which relieves a business from hiring workers, or promotes and profits a business and therefore gives it a competitive edge over similar competition, or be required to escort into abortion clinics, or allowed to protest or block the entrance way during the hours I am a volunteer..... .

But it doesn't say that after hours I can't go to church, nor attend a prayer meeting or Bible study, nor conduct such on my own free time. If I'm already engaged in a ministry... that ministry must take place during my spare time. If like the CCC's.... and volunteers are placed in other localities and temporarily stationed... then it follows that I've left the home areas of my involvement in such... and to carry my witness and continued experience onward is not the purpose of the volunteer hours requested by the government.... but of my discretionary use of free time.


BTW: To you who have family members in the military....... it ain't always what you think. I attend a woman's Bible study at NAS-Pensacola once a week: Our leader is active in the base chapel ministries. They are aware of new recuits and new transfers and she's active in making contact and inviting service men ...and their families, if present, to the many services and activities available 'on campus' for fellowship with other believers: As active as the base ministry is with all kinds of activities, she gets phone calls from concerned parents living miles away wanting to know are there ANY religious services or fellowship activities for Christian soldiers... as they are hearing from their sons or their daughters 'there's just nothing to do on base.... no Christians to associate with and fellowship with.' She trys to make a special effort to contact that service person and make the calendar and activities with many opportunities available to them and help them be aware. But, repeated concerns and calls by inquiring parents often leads her to believe that many do leave home after being raised in the discipline of regular church attendance and fellowship under the guardian eye of parents..... to test their wings and independance and rebell, at least for a season, to follow the unbelieving crowd into activities which the crowd calls 'fun.' So.... parents who have children in the military... don't always believe that 'there's nothing for Christians to do' when they're in training on a base..... because the ministries are there.... but the guys and gals are just refusing to participate and join in or become part of what is available. These "kids" really need our prayers!

 

[just-want-peace]

I haven't read this piece of legislation or whatever it's called, BUT you must remember that if there is any, ANY, ANY, possibility of misinterpreting, to negate the Christian influence, then some shyster of an attorney & his equally shyster client are going to ride that gray area for all it's worth.

Just look at how the interaction of "CHURCH & STATE" has mushroomed to volcanic proportions over so many trivial incidents that weren't bed-rock clear!

And don't say it can't happen here - if you really feel that is an impossibility, then you've bested Rip Van Winkle for being out of touch.

 

[JustChristian]

While I don't agree with Tims concerns over this, I think what you posted about Bush is apples and oranges to Tims point about what Obama was demanding.

This was his question:

I will if I can find that provision in Bush's faith based laws... I asked in post 19 for a link to it.

It seems to me he was looking for what I provided. I don't see your issue.

 

[tinytim]

Sorry about not answering sooner..
JC, from what you posted.. (and thank you for that).. I don't see the similarity.

Under Bush's Faith based laws.. the ORGANIZATION was prohibited from engaging in religious activities..

Under this bill, PARTICIPANTS are prohibited.. and no where does it state that they are only prohibited while "on duty"...
The thing of it is, they will be "participants" the whole 3 months.

Like I said earlier, I worked for the State of WV. While employed, I could not support political candidates in my spare time.. that is the law here.
And this is worded eerily similar to the law I was under.

I don't think this is only talking about what the participants are doing specifically as an act of volunteerism to pay back money to the Government.. I think this applies the whole time they have signed up for.

I am going to find an attorney or someone who knows about this, and ask them.

BTW, is it really volunteering if they are being paid? Oh, yeah.. it is in socialism.. not capitalism.

 

[windcatcher]

Hey guys.... it may work when the beast system is in full swing... but right now.... the law protects us and our freedom of religion..... BUT the law cannot protect the weak, ignorant, faint of heart, or fearful from being intimidated by ghosts, goblins, and rumors.

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. Know when they apply and when they don't..... and USE YOUR COMMON SENSE!

Can government stop people from exercising religion in prison? NO. They might try to limit some expressions but they can't stop it. If you work a secular job.... when can your employer control the exercise of your religion and when can he NOT.????? The military provides chaplins... and requires religious tolerance..... Would this be possible if they could just ban religion and associated activities altogether.

What makes any one on this board think that Congress can pass a law requiring volunteer service (a conflict of meaning in the terms 'require vs volunteer), and then add to the constitutional question another which says for 3 months... and all continuous times therein.... one can not pray, read their Bible or religious literature, talk with anyone... fellow worker, friend or member of their own family about anything regarding religion or its exercise... cannot go to church, synagogue, or mosque; cannot engage in exercises which may resemble mediatation.... or range of motion/flexibility/ and core balance... which might resemble yoga...... or explain a verse of scripture, or quote from Lord Byrom and then quote the 23rd Psalm.... because the religion police are out to stop you........ Give me a break...... Prison and military are the most controlled environments in which a person might live...... well may be a Psych Facility is worse.... but of the other two.... there are limits as to what the government and policies can limit.

Folks...... I get scared as much and as easily as anyone on this board..... but READING MORE INTO THIS THAN IT CAN LAWFULLY MEAN is actually siding with the enemy by confusing fear and rumor with fact of law and practice....... but the result becomes the same.... If because of YOU'RE OWN FEAR you fail to fully apprehend and use the opportunities which are yours to use without a struggle or question. You give 'the enemy' the battle without a fight.... when you already judge for yourselves that you are restrained and disabled before looking to see what strengths you have. "The enemy,' more tragically, may be the one of your own making .......but by revealing your own paranoia..... you've opened the way for attacks in areas of your own faithlessness and fear.

We don't need laws or enemies to stop us when we inspire each other with limitations of our own imaginations and fears!

For interesting reads go here:
http://www.lc.org/resources/sbpolicy.htm

or peruse this site for info:
http://www.lc.org/

 

[LeBuick]

<B></B>

• http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/text

As you can see, the title is PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

Because this section deals with BOTH PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES (section a)
AND
INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS. (section b)

IOWs, 2 different things.. so no Lebuick, I am not wrong.

Uhhh??? You're reading this with complete bias. I believe the activities are those of the organization or individuals acting on behalf of those organizations. You would have to show me where you see individual limitation in that bill.

You can't read sec 125, sub para (a) points 1-7 without including point 8 which says "Providing a direct benefit to--"

So the individual activities in point 1-7 can't provide a direct benefit to the organizations listed in points a-e of point 8.

They are not suppressing your individual religious freedoms, they are limiting you in relation to a religious organization. IOW, Tim can worship all he wants. Tim CAN'T hold a service on behalf of his Church.

It also says protesters can't protests, lobbyist can't lobby, boycotters can't boycott and strikers can't strike on behalf of their respective organizations.