You guys have touhed on something I learned from my father-in-law on Thanksgiving. I am not saved because I do not believe that baptism is manditory for salvation! WOW! I did not know this belief of there's until Thursday. And I was told my baptism was worthless because I did it for the wrong reasons.
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Church of Christ Question
- Thread starter DeadMan
- Start date
Heavy Metal Calvinist
New Member
I spoke with a Church of Christ Preacher who was bi-vocational- he was the barber cutting my hair for a time. Due to a tv preacher on the tube, we got on the God topic.
He openly frowned when I told him where I attended church (SBC). Baptism was a hot-button issue with him. I shared the five sola's and the five points, and asked him about his views on Justification.
I asked him about his statement of faith and he said that "they had nothing but the Bible to go on...." I suppose that is the "no creed but Christ" argument- and truly, the Bible is all we need. But a confession or statement of faith about what this or that group believes about the Bible is nice for those on the outside looking in at the denomination.
I would like to find some scholarly history on Campbellism. I just found this site:
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/Baptizo/definitions.html
It is a good quick-hitter, but no depth.
As far as the above-
Phi 3:3 For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--
Phi 3:4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
Phi 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
Phi 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness, under the law blameless.
Phi 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phi 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--
Phi 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection....
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect (JOHN OWEN, III:433)."
He openly frowned when I told him where I attended church (SBC). Baptism was a hot-button issue with him. I shared the five sola's and the five points, and asked him about his views on Justification.
I asked him about his statement of faith and he said that "they had nothing but the Bible to go on...." I suppose that is the "no creed but Christ" argument- and truly, the Bible is all we need. But a confession or statement of faith about what this or that group believes about the Bible is nice for those on the outside looking in at the denomination.
I would like to find some scholarly history on Campbellism. I just found this site:
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/Baptizo/definitions.html
It is a good quick-hitter, but no depth.
As far as the above-
Phi 3:3 For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--
Phi 3:4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
Phi 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
Phi 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness, under the law blameless.
Phi 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phi 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--
Phi 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection....
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect (JOHN OWEN, III:433)."
KenH
Well-Known Member
Here's an article with a bunch of links at the end of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ
You might also find this link helpful:
www.thebible.net/introchurch/
Thanks KenH. Both those sites were interesting. And I couldn't help but look this up while I was there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist
I really had to bite my tongue on Thanksgiving. I've always felt that whom ever's home you are in has the responsibility of saying grace unless he/she asks someone else to do so. After I said grace and food was starting to be consumed, I noticed my father-in-aw, mother-in-law and grandmother-in-law over in a corner saying grace by themselves! I made sure all were present before I started so I know they weren't left out. I didn't say anything and as they were driving away, my wife looked at me thanked me for not confronting them and then explained that since I am not saved in their beliefs, my prayer was worthless, as well! Is this attitude normal? We're working on our 9th year of marriage and I hadn't noticed them do that before. Talk about offensive!
KenH
Well-Known Member
Sounds like your in-laws are among the strictest of the older Church of Christ folks.
As I said, stuff like that is more prevalent among the older members. Of course, there are older members that are not like that and there are younger members that are like that.
The stricter group believes "We are Christians and the only Christians". The more open group believes "We are Christians but not the only Chritians."
Before I left the Church of Christ I had started siding with the more open folks.
By the way, I left the Church of Christ because I became a Calvinist in soteriology and there are a goodly number of Calvinists among Baptists. But a Calvinist in the Church of Christ is an extremely, extremely rare bird.
As I said, stuff like that is more prevalent among the older members. Of course, there are older members that are not like that and there are younger members that are like that.
The stricter group believes "We are Christians and the only Christians". The more open group believes "We are Christians but not the only Chritians."
Before I left the Church of Christ I had started siding with the more open folks.
By the way, I left the Church of Christ because I became a Calvinist in soteriology and there are a goodly number of Calvinists among Baptists. But a Calvinist in the Church of Christ is an extremely, extremely rare bird.
Deadman,
bmerr here. I'm a member of the church of Christ. I used to be a Baptist (SBC). If you have any questions you'd like to ask your in-laws, but don't to keep peace with the wife (I VERY MUCH understand your situation), I'd be happy to try and answer.
KenH accurately represents the difference of views among some churches of Christ. I am of the more conservative (we call it Biblical) stance. I'm 38, so I 'm not sure if I'm old or young (HA HA).
The "no statement of faith" thing is based on the many different statements of faith among the denominations. They all believe different things, and all claim the Bible as their authority. It ususally gets down to "I believe A, B, and C, and these are Scriptures that support my belief in A, B, and C."
The problem is, there are usually several other verses that refute A, B, and C, and those verses are avoided in general, and certainly don't make it into their "statement of faith".
To simply believe the Bible is to sometimes reject things we have believed in the past, if those things are shown to be false by the Scriptures.
The influence of liberalism, along with ignorance of the Bible has led many congregations into erroneous doctrine and practice, while the sign in front of the building where they assemble still reads "Church of Christ".
Time to go. Talk to you later.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. I'm a member of the church of Christ. I used to be a Baptist (SBC). If you have any questions you'd like to ask your in-laws, but don't to keep peace with the wife (I VERY MUCH understand your situation), I'd be happy to try and answer.
KenH accurately represents the difference of views among some churches of Christ. I am of the more conservative (we call it Biblical) stance. I'm 38, so I 'm not sure if I'm old or young (HA HA).
The "no statement of faith" thing is based on the many different statements of faith among the denominations. They all believe different things, and all claim the Bible as their authority. It ususally gets down to "I believe A, B, and C, and these are Scriptures that support my belief in A, B, and C."
The problem is, there are usually several other verses that refute A, B, and C, and those verses are avoided in general, and certainly don't make it into their "statement of faith".
To simply believe the Bible is to sometimes reject things we have believed in the past, if those things are shown to be false by the Scriptures.
The influence of liberalism, along with ignorance of the Bible has led many congregations into erroneous doctrine and practice, while the sign in front of the building where they assemble still reads "Church of Christ".
Time to go. Talk to you later.
In Christ,
bmerr
eschatologist
New Member
I too believe that you are saved by FAITH through grace!!! I just believe that believing, confessing, repentance and baptism ARE the parts that make up faith. The Word says that you are saved and your sins are forgiven because you believed. It related about confessing for the forgiveness of sins. It ties repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And it also states baptism for the forgiveness of sins and salvation. They have each been stated independenty and some collectively together relating the same outcome. Who here would believe you could be saved by just the one part of faith without the other(s)? Can you be by just believing yet not repenting? Can you be saved by just confessing yet not believing or repenting? Absolutely not!!! Yet again I could show you where these statements are made independently of one another! According to the word you MUST believe, repent, confess, and be baptized to be saved. Is that not what the Word says? The big misconception comes mainly from the misunderstanding of what the 'physical' and 'spirtual' connotations of these events are. You perceive baptism as a 'physical only' event! The 'spirtual' meaning seems to elude you. Well for a good understanding of what 'spirtual' event happens when the 'physical' action of baptism takes place, read Rom.6:1f. Many get lost in JUST its 'physical' nature! Well then, isn't there also some kind of 'physical' action done by the individual who repents, believes, or confesses too? Yet we all know the 'spiritual' connotations regarding these. My point is this: I believe they are ALL a part of FAITH. and separating any for the sole reason of not understanding its 'spiritual' nature is wrong and bad hermenuetics! They MUST be tied together, with baptism as the culminating "spiritual' event. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit!!!
eschatologist,
bmerr here. I don't know if I could have said it better myself. In the past I may have seemed to emphasize baptism, since I've spent alot of time discussiong it, but I hope nobody ever had the impression I meant one could be saved by "baptism only".
Col 2:12 is a nice commentary on both the physical, and spiritual aspects of baptism.
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him [physical] through the faith of the operation of God [spiritual], who hath raised him from the dead."
Well said, sir.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. I don't know if I could have said it better myself. In the past I may have seemed to emphasize baptism, since I've spent alot of time discussiong it, but I hope nobody ever had the impression I meant one could be saved by "baptism only".
Col 2:12 is a nice commentary on both the physical, and spiritual aspects of baptism.
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him [physical] through the faith of the operation of God [spiritual], who hath raised him from the dead."
Well said, sir.
In Christ,
bmerr
Baptist mother
New Member
What advice can you give a mother whose SB son is considering marriage to a CoC 20 year old girl.They broke up once before because of an argument on doctrine,that was three years ago. My son says he has not met any other girls with such high morals and he likes that about her.Our son has a standing promise to go through a 10-week pre-marriage course with our baptist pastor.
His father and I have always made it clear, your wife must be a born-again beliver saved by grace alone.We are praying that our son will make the right decision. She is from the strict sect. Any advice?
His father and I have always made it clear, your wife must be a born-again beliver saved by grace alone.We are praying that our son will make the right decision. She is from the strict sect. Any advice?
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Baptist mother,
I read this in an old Baptist association minute book (by "old" I mean from the 1600s). A church in the association asked their advice as to whether believers should marry unbelievers. The answer given by the association was basicially, why would a believer want to marry an unbeliever.
The Scripture they cited was Psalm 15 which says that those who can stand before God are those,
"in whose eyes a vile person is contemned."
Campbellites do not believe in regeneration and therefore cannot possibly be godly people. Why would a godly person want to marry an ungodly person? It just doesn't make sense and will never come to any good.
My advice is to tell your son that you will not go to his wedding and will never condone him marrying a Campbellite woman.
Mark Osgatharp
I read this in an old Baptist association minute book (by "old" I mean from the 1600s). A church in the association asked their advice as to whether believers should marry unbelievers. The answer given by the association was basicially, why would a believer want to marry an unbeliever.
The Scripture they cited was Psalm 15 which says that those who can stand before God are those,
"in whose eyes a vile person is contemned."
Campbellites do not believe in regeneration and therefore cannot possibly be godly people. Why would a godly person want to marry an ungodly person? It just doesn't make sense and will never come to any good.
My advice is to tell your son that you will not go to his wedding and will never condone him marrying a Campbellite woman.
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
So is the sin of Campbellism in being theologically wrong or in being too strict?
What you condemn in the old moss backed Campbellites is the only thing they have going for them - a belief that truth is truth, no exceptions, period.
Would to God that Baptist people were equally convinced that right is right.
Mark Osgatharp
Humblesmith
Member
There are some CoC'ers who are the "one cuppers." They accurately quote scripture as saying that we should share "the cup"....not "cups." So biblically, communion should only be in one big cup, not a bunch of little cups. Any use of "cups" is unbiblical, and therefore they separate from all those non-biblical people who use a bunch of little cups. Seriously, I'm not making this up.
One of the big issues with CoC, to which I went as a child, is that by not summarizing their beliefs into statements, then there's no ability to follow Romans 14. Rom. 14 tells us that even if there is a true biblical position on something, then it might not be worth breaking fellowship over. Therefore, the CoC tends to hold all things to be major things, with no discernment between major and minor.
Unity is a big theme in CoC. In the name of unity, the CoC has had more church splits over the years than just about any other group calling itself Christian. They've split over communion cups, musical instruments, pitch pipes, names of the minister, name of the church, baptism, the things you say during baptism, and on, and on, and on.
As exhibit A, I submit to you Romans 14. Live it, apply it.
One of the big issues with CoC, to which I went as a child, is that by not summarizing their beliefs into statements, then there's no ability to follow Romans 14. Rom. 14 tells us that even if there is a true biblical position on something, then it might not be worth breaking fellowship over. Therefore, the CoC tends to hold all things to be major things, with no discernment between major and minor.
Unity is a big theme in CoC. In the name of unity, the CoC has had more church splits over the years than just about any other group calling itself Christian. They've split over communion cups, musical instruments, pitch pipes, names of the minister, name of the church, baptism, the things you say during baptism, and on, and on, and on.
As exhibit A, I submit to you Romans 14. Live it, apply it.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
I'm not sure I agree, and since I'm one of the ones who don't believe it IYO, I'd like to be sure of what you're saying.</font>[/QUOTE]The Campbellites do not believe that the Holy Spirit creates a new spiritual creature. They do not believe in the direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the soul.
In Campbellism, the work of the Holy Spirit was to inspire the word and the word working on the intellect is the only influence of the Holy Spirit on man.
Therefore, it is technically incorrect to say that Campbellites believe in "baptismal regeneration." The fact is, Campbellites don't believe in regeneration at all.
Mark Osgatharp
The new testament of Christ teaches one is saved by the word of truth. James 1:18,21, I Pet.1:20, John 15:3. The word of God opens the mind and causes the examination of the thoughts and intents of the mind. Hebrews 4:12. The Spirit uses the word as the instrument to perform the open heart surgery needed to save. Eph.6:17. Men are saved by faith in the word of God when they respond in obedience to the word. Romans 10:17;6:17;16:26.