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Church of Christ? What?
- Thread starter ormond
- Start date
So, like everything else the scripture doesn't prove what you would like it to prove. I mean nearly every major Christian denomination will have statements of that sort in their articles of faith.
http://www.lcms.org/bookofconcord/augsburgdefense/6_church.asp
Cynic:
The church of Christ began in A. D. 30 on the day of Pentecost at Jerusalem. This was during the days of the Roman kings during the lives of the apostles by the power provided of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the gospel that saves all men. Romans 1:16,17,Acts 2:38, Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:2, Joel 2:28,29, Daniel 2:44-47, Mk. 9:1, Mat. 2:1, Luke 3:1,2, Acts 2.
If one follows the teachings of the New Testament it makes him or her a Christian and a member of his body, the church, assembly, congregation, house, kingdom, whatever scriptural description you choose; Christ has one body, one head, one authority, one name for salvation,one new name. He has one church. Acts 20:28. It belongs to him. Mat. 16:18. The term church of Christ simply shows possesssion. I belong to Christ, no more no less. I Cor. 6:20.
I am under the authority of the New Testament. Mat. 28:18-20. No more no less.
I wear his name. Acts 11:26. No more No less.
If one follows the teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament, he will be a part of the church of Acts 2. If you prefer, assembly, congregation, kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God, the Kingdom of his dear Son,the churches of God In Christ Jesus, the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The church of Christ began in A. D. 30 on the day of Pentecost at Jerusalem. This was during the days of the Roman kings during the lives of the apostles by the power provided of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the gospel that saves all men. Romans 1:16,17,Acts 2:38, Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:2, Joel 2:28,29, Daniel 2:44-47, Mk. 9:1, Mat. 2:1, Luke 3:1,2, Acts 2.
If one follows the teachings of the New Testament it makes him or her a Christian and a member of his body, the church, assembly, congregation, house, kingdom, whatever scriptural description you choose; Christ has one body, one head, one authority, one name for salvation,one new name. He has one church. Acts 20:28. It belongs to him. Mat. 16:18. The term church of Christ simply shows possesssion. I belong to Christ, no more no less. I Cor. 6:20.
I am under the authority of the New Testament. Mat. 28:18-20. No more no less.
I wear his name. Acts 11:26. No more No less.
If one follows the teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament, he will be a part of the church of Acts 2. If you prefer, assembly, congregation, kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God, the Kingdom of his dear Son,the churches of God In Christ Jesus, the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Chem:
I have not posted any man made creed. I simply follow the New Testament. I have no articles of faith. I have no convention, magisterium, convention ,council or synod.
I have the all-sufficient word of God. II Tim. 3:16,17.
I am under the authority of Christ and ALL he has commanded. Mat. 28:18-20. Where does God authorize such things as conventions, synods, etc?
I am not a part of a pastor system. The church is patterned after the teachings of I Tim. 3:1-11 Titus 1:4-9. Men are the teachers and preachers in the assembly of the church.
I worship every Sunday in 5 ways. Praying; I Thes. 5:17, Preaching; Acts 20:7, Giving; I Cor. 16:1,2, Partaking of the Lord's Supper; I Cor. 11: 24,25.
While this is not exhaustive, it certainly makes a distinction between the church of Acts 2 and what is practiced today. If you have specific questions about the faith, I would be glad to answer them.
Frank
I have not posted any man made creed. I simply follow the New Testament. I have no articles of faith. I have no convention, magisterium, convention ,council or synod.
I have the all-sufficient word of God. II Tim. 3:16,17.
I am under the authority of Christ and ALL he has commanded. Mat. 28:18-20. Where does God authorize such things as conventions, synods, etc?
I am not a part of a pastor system. The church is patterned after the teachings of I Tim. 3:1-11 Titus 1:4-9. Men are the teachers and preachers in the assembly of the church.
I worship every Sunday in 5 ways. Praying; I Thes. 5:17, Preaching; Acts 20:7, Giving; I Cor. 16:1,2, Partaking of the Lord's Supper; I Cor. 11: 24,25.
While this is not exhaustive, it certainly makes a distinction between the church of Acts 2 and what is practiced today. If you have specific questions about the faith, I would be glad to answer them.
Frank
ChristianCynic
<img src=/cc2.jpg>
< This was during the days of the Roman kings during the lives of the apostles by the power provided of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the gospel that saves all men. >
"Saves all men"? Are you a 'universalist?'
< If one follows the teachings of the New Testament it makes him or her a Christian and a member of his body >
Very good theoretically, but I have never found a church which follows the NT in its entirety, and I don't expect to. Absolutely forbiddance of any oath (Matthew 5:34), the 'signs of those who believe'-- picking up snakes, casting out demons, drinking poison, speaking with other languages (Mark 16:17,18), healing by oil on the head and prayer (James 6:14,15)... most churches ignore these things, and those which attempt them ignore other NT teachings.
< If one follows the teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament, he will be a part of the church of Acts 2. >
The church which spoke with many recognizable, though unlearned, languages? The church which was taught baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38)? The one which met in a Jewish temple and held all things in common (Acts 4:32)? I have not discovered that kind of church either.
< I wear his name. Acts 11:26. No more No less. >
Have you ever been arrested for indecent exposure?
"Saves all men"? Are you a 'universalist?'
< If one follows the teachings of the New Testament it makes him or her a Christian and a member of his body >
Very good theoretically, but I have never found a church which follows the NT in its entirety, and I don't expect to. Absolutely forbiddance of any oath (Matthew 5:34), the 'signs of those who believe'-- picking up snakes, casting out demons, drinking poison, speaking with other languages (Mark 16:17,18), healing by oil on the head and prayer (James 6:14,15)... most churches ignore these things, and those which attempt them ignore other NT teachings.
< If one follows the teachings of Christ as found in the New Testament, he will be a part of the church of Acts 2. >
The church which spoke with many recognizable, though unlearned, languages? The church which was taught baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38)? The one which met in a Jewish temple and held all things in common (Acts 4:32)? I have not discovered that kind of church either.
< I wear his name. Acts 11:26. No more No less. >
Have you ever been arrested for indecent exposure?
Cynic:
I practice those things authroized by the New Testament. Just because you are ignorant of them does not mean they are not available and the church does not practice them.
I am a Christian, not a Universalist. The Bible teaches that God saves all men who obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16,17;6:17,18, Hebrews 5:8,9. Obviously , all men do not obey the gospel, therefore, all men will not be saved. II Thes. 1:6-9.
The handling of snakes, etc. was for the apostles and to those whom they laid hands. Mk. 16:17-20, Acts 8:17,18. Miraculous power was a promised received ,not a commandment to be obeyed. see Joel 2:28, Jn. 16:13,Lk. 24:49,Acts 2:1,17.
Frank
I practice those things authroized by the New Testament. Just because you are ignorant of them does not mean they are not available and the church does not practice them.
I am a Christian, not a Universalist. The Bible teaches that God saves all men who obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16,17;6:17,18, Hebrews 5:8,9. Obviously , all men do not obey the gospel, therefore, all men will not be saved. II Thes. 1:6-9.
The handling of snakes, etc. was for the apostles and to those whom they laid hands. Mk. 16:17-20, Acts 8:17,18. Miraculous power was a promised received ,not a commandment to be obeyed. see Joel 2:28, Jn. 16:13,Lk. 24:49,Acts 2:1,17.
Frank
Before you knock the creeds, confession, etc. You may want to bother learning about confessional churches. To us the establishment of confessions is part of following good order and teaching new disciples. Also if you bothered to learn about other denominations you would find that at least with the LCMS and the churches we are in fellowship with, the entirety of the revealed Word is the final authority.
Then you have already failed in following the NT because men are also the overseers(pastors) and deacons
Do you believe that you are partaking in the True Body and Blood of Christ? If not then you are not partaking of the Lord's supper. You are taking part in a mockery of the Lord's Supper and are eating and drinking to your judgement.
Also where does it say you have to worship on Sunday?
Dualhunter
New Member
And just what is this gospel of yours?
ChristianCynic
<img src=/cc2.jpg>
< all men do not obey the gospel, therefore, all men will not be saved. >
You previously said the gospel "saves all men." Which is it?
< The handling of snakes, etc. was for the apostles and to those whom they laid hands. Mk. 16:17-20 >
If you read the passage you cited, you will see it says "These signs will accompany those who have believed..." Unless 'the apostles and to those whom they laid hands' are the only ones who believed, either you or the scripture is wrong. [In case you want to know, I think there is reasonable enough doubt about Mark 16:9-20 appearing in the orignial text that I form no beliefs or practices from it.]
And you did not address Acts 2:38 and the command "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."
[ July 20, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]
You previously said the gospel "saves all men." Which is it?
< The handling of snakes, etc. was for the apostles and to those whom they laid hands. Mk. 16:17-20 >
If you read the passage you cited, you will see it says "These signs will accompany those who have believed..." Unless 'the apostles and to those whom they laid hands' are the only ones who believed, either you or the scripture is wrong. [In case you want to know, I think there is reasonable enough doubt about Mark 16:9-20 appearing in the orignial text that I form no beliefs or practices from it.]
And you did not address Acts 2:38 and the command "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."
[ July 20, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]
Chem:
By pastoral system I simply mean this as it pertaisn to the denominational world. Most of the religious world has a man called a Pastor he mayor maynot be married. He mayor may not meet the divine qualifications of the scriptures posted. Pastors are elders but elderd don't have to be preachers. Most of the denominational world is organized witha single Pastor, which a violation of the divine instructuions. There are always a plurality of men who serve as elders or pastors or shepherds or bishops or overseers. Next , they have a deacon board. Most participate in some unauthorized convention synod, etc. This system is not found in the pages of the New Testament, and I am not a part of this type Pastoral system. I hope this clears up the misconception about the term Pastoral system.
Furthermore, creeds and confessions of faith are unauthrorized by the New Testament. Therefore, I do not have one. The faith was once delivered. There is one faith in the New Testament, not many. Eph.4:4-6. Have a good one.
Frank
By pastoral system I simply mean this as it pertaisn to the denominational world. Most of the religious world has a man called a Pastor he mayor maynot be married. He mayor may not meet the divine qualifications of the scriptures posted. Pastors are elders but elderd don't have to be preachers. Most of the denominational world is organized witha single Pastor, which a violation of the divine instructuions. There are always a plurality of men who serve as elders or pastors or shepherds or bishops or overseers. Next , they have a deacon board. Most participate in some unauthorized convention synod, etc. This system is not found in the pages of the New Testament, and I am not a part of this type Pastoral system. I hope this clears up the misconception about the term Pastoral system.
Furthermore, creeds and confessions of faith are unauthrorized by the New Testament. Therefore, I do not have one. The faith was once delivered. There is one faith in the New Testament, not many. Eph.4:4-6. Have a good one.
Frank
Cynic:
II Tim. 2:`15 commands us to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. I posted the scriptures about the miraculous power being a promise to be received , NOT A COMMANDMENT TO BE OBEYED. Please right them down. The Promise: Joel 2:28,29 - OLD Testament Prophesy. Jesus- Promise of the Holy Spirit to the APOSTLES- John 16:13, Luke 24:49.
THE PROMISE RECEIVED. Acts 2:1,17.
The Promise Received by the Gentiles, " all flesh" of Joel 2:28, Acts 10:44.
The promise received by Others. Laying on of the Apostles hands. Acts 8:17,18.
Jesus affirms promise prior to his ascension. Mk. 16:17-20.Again, you must rightly divide the word of truth. By using the totality of the evidence one makes the rational conclusions about the subject under consideration.
Now, Acts 2:38,The command is divine instruction that answers the divine question of verse 37. Men and brethren what shall we do? Peter replies by the power of the Holy Spirit promised him and the 12, see previous scriptures plus Mat. 16:19;18:18, Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. When one obeys he receives the gift of salvation which by the power of Peter and the 12 was delivered that day. Some believe it was the miraculous power. However, if this were true then Simon who had become a Christian would not have offered to buy the power. See Acts 8:18. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of sins by putting one in contact with the blood of Christ. see Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:26, Act 22:16, I Pet. 1:17,18. Furhtermore , this baptism was to be performed for all times by the authority of Jesus Christ. Mat. 28:18-20.
Frank
II Tim. 2:`15 commands us to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. I posted the scriptures about the miraculous power being a promise to be received , NOT A COMMANDMENT TO BE OBEYED. Please right them down. The Promise: Joel 2:28,29 - OLD Testament Prophesy. Jesus- Promise of the Holy Spirit to the APOSTLES- John 16:13, Luke 24:49.
THE PROMISE RECEIVED. Acts 2:1,17.
The Promise Received by the Gentiles, " all flesh" of Joel 2:28, Acts 10:44.
The promise received by Others. Laying on of the Apostles hands. Acts 8:17,18.
Jesus affirms promise prior to his ascension. Mk. 16:17-20.Again, you must rightly divide the word of truth. By using the totality of the evidence one makes the rational conclusions about the subject under consideration.
Now, Acts 2:38,The command is divine instruction that answers the divine question of verse 37. Men and brethren what shall we do? Peter replies by the power of the Holy Spirit promised him and the 12, see previous scriptures plus Mat. 16:19;18:18, Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. When one obeys he receives the gift of salvation which by the power of Peter and the 12 was delivered that day. Some believe it was the miraculous power. However, if this were true then Simon who had become a Christian would not have offered to buy the power. See Acts 8:18. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of sins by putting one in contact with the blood of Christ. see Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:26, Act 22:16, I Pet. 1:17,18. Furhtermore , this baptism was to be performed for all times by the authority of Jesus Christ. Mat. 28:18-20.
Frank
Chem:
I claim the name of Christ because it honors him, not a man. What other descriptive term could describe the saved other than the saved belonging to Christ.I cannot believe you said you would not claim the name of the savior. This is totally against the servant concept of the Bible. Romans 10:10, Mat. 10:32,Romans 1:1. The Bible says, in Eph. 3:14,15 " For this cause I bow my knees unot the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ of whom the whole family of the earth is named. I guess the Kingdom of his dear Son is not good enough for you. Col. 1:12,13.
Frank
I claim the name of Christ because it honors him, not a man. What other descriptive term could describe the saved other than the saved belonging to Christ.I cannot believe you said you would not claim the name of the savior. This is totally against the servant concept of the Bible. Romans 10:10, Mat. 10:32,Romans 1:1. The Bible says, in Eph. 3:14,15 " For this cause I bow my knees unot the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ of whom the whole family of the earth is named. I guess the Kingdom of his dear Son is not good enough for you. Col. 1:12,13.
Frank
Chem:
Have you actually studied the denominational creeds? If you have,compare them to what I have posted and practice.Let's take Cobbs or Hiscox's baptist manual. Then let's compare it to the teachings of the New Testament. If they were the same, logic dictates to me, I would not need the manual. If you wish, take any of the denominational creed books and compare them to the New Testament. Then, post what you have found by comparison and contrast. Let me know what you find out by your research.
Frank
Have you actually studied the denominational creeds? If you have,compare them to what I have posted and practice.Let's take Cobbs or Hiscox's baptist manual. Then let's compare it to the teachings of the New Testament. If they were the same, logic dictates to me, I would not need the manual. If you wish, take any of the denominational creed books and compare them to the New Testament. Then, post what you have found by comparison and contrast. Let me know what you find out by your research.
Frank
Brother Adam
New Member
How old are you Frank? Or what age group do you fall in?
Just curious
Bro. Adam
Just curious
Bro. Adam
Chem:
The first day of the week follows the sabbath or Sat. Oh, and by the way, PENTECOST ALWAYS FELL ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. Lev. 23:15,16. It is also called the Lord's Day. Rev. 1:11.
Please tell me where God said we needed creeds to make disciples? Book, chapter and verse please? By what authority do you do these things? Col. 3:17.
Frank
The first day of the week follows the sabbath or Sat. Oh, and by the way, PENTECOST ALWAYS FELL ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. Lev. 23:15,16. It is also called the Lord's Day. Rev. 1:11.
Please tell me where God said we needed creeds to make disciples? Book, chapter and verse please? By what authority do you do these things? Col. 3:17.
Frank
Brother Adam
New Member
You don't like waiting for responses do you?
Cynic:
If you accept the ending without Mk. 9-20, one will look quite foolish. For in numerous places the Bible becomes contradictory. The folowing citations from Aleph and B jointly and erroneously: Mt. 1:7,8, 10;5:22;27:9: Mk. 1:2: 2:26: 6:22: 7:4: Lk. 2:22:4:44; Jn. 1:28,42: 21:15,16, 21; Acts 11:20; 12:25; I Thes. 2:7: II Pet. 3:10.
If one ends Mk.at verse 8 he is left with the melancoly statement," the women were afraid." Moreover, to terminate a sentence with the word GAR is most unusuall and exceedingly rare and NO INSTANCE has been found where gar stands at the end of a book.
I trust this will suffice to the rational mind that Mk 9-20 are a part of the divine text.
Frank
If you accept the ending without Mk. 9-20, one will look quite foolish. For in numerous places the Bible becomes contradictory. The folowing citations from Aleph and B jointly and erroneously: Mt. 1:7,8, 10;5:22;27:9: Mk. 1:2: 2:26: 6:22: 7:4: Lk. 2:22:4:44; Jn. 1:28,42: 21:15,16, 21; Acts 11:20; 12:25; I Thes. 2:7: II Pet. 3:10.
If one ends Mk.at verse 8 he is left with the melancoly statement," the women were afraid." Moreover, to terminate a sentence with the word GAR is most unusuall and exceedingly rare and NO INSTANCE has been found where gar stands at the end of a book.
I trust this will suffice to the rational mind that Mk 9-20 are a part of the divine text.
Frank
Chem:
Everything I have posted is truth. If you wish to deal with specific topics.Please feel free to make your affirmation. I assure you I will do the same. You make unsubstantiated assertions about what scripture proves as I have posted. I would like to know,according to the Bible, which of the scriptures I posted are not truth? How do you know I do not practice all the things commanded by Christ? To my knowledge, you have NEVER attended our assembly. To my knowledge you have NEVER heard one sermon from our assembly? To myknowledge, you have NEVER seen me and my labors here in this town.Therefore, I must conclude, you base your truth on preconceived emotional feelings,not the totality of evidence making only those conclusions as are warranted by the evidence. Bythe way, your statement about the Lord's Supper was unsubstantiated opinion. Where does it say the Lord's Supper represents the literal blood and body of Christ. I do not believe transubstantiation as it is not found in the pages of the New Testament. Have a good one.
Frank
Everything I have posted is truth. If you wish to deal with specific topics.Please feel free to make your affirmation. I assure you I will do the same. You make unsubstantiated assertions about what scripture proves as I have posted. I would like to know,according to the Bible, which of the scriptures I posted are not truth? How do you know I do not practice all the things commanded by Christ? To my knowledge, you have NEVER attended our assembly. To my knowledge you have NEVER heard one sermon from our assembly? To myknowledge, you have NEVER seen me and my labors here in this town.Therefore, I must conclude, you base your truth on preconceived emotional feelings,not the totality of evidence making only those conclusions as are warranted by the evidence. Bythe way, your statement about the Lord's Supper was unsubstantiated opinion. Where does it say the Lord's Supper represents the literal blood and body of Christ. I do not believe transubstantiation as it is not found in the pages of the New Testament. Have a good one.
Frank
CHURCHES OF CHRIST. The Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ, and Christian Church are groups of churches which grew out of the early 19th century Restoration Movement on the American frontier. Key leaders were Barton Stone, Thomas and Alexander Campbell (hence the term "Campbellites"), and Walter Scott, all from Presbyterian backgrounds. These men claimed the desire to restore the church to its N.T. purity.
These movements were first independent of one another, later combined, then divided again in the 20th century. Alexander Campbell was noted for his abilities in debating. He loved to argue and even boasted that an hour of debating was more profitable than an entire day of preaching. Sadly, this proud, argumentive spirit has often been evident among Church of Christ leaders.
The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) was organized nationally in 1968 with headquarters in Dallas, Texas, and has become very ecumenical and modernistic. It is represented in the National and World Council of Churches.
Though there have been differences among Church of Christ congregations concerning things such as the role of elders in the churches, the formation of denominational structures, and whether or not musical instruments should be used in the services, some key distinctives are as follows: (1) Salvation is by faith plus good works. (2) Water baptism is an essential means of salvation (baptismal regeneration). Acts 2:38 is interpreted to mean that baptism remits sins. (3) The Churches of Christ are the only true churches today. (4) Christians should not be called by names other than "Church of Christ," "Disciples," or "Christian." (5) A Christian can lose his salvation. These doctrines are contrary to the teaching of the N.T.; therefore, the Churches of Christ must be avoided in obedience to Ro. 16:17-18.
Way of Life Encyclopedia, David Cloud.
For a denomination that is less than two hundred years old, born out of rebellion and divisiveness to already orthodox doctrine, the claim to apostolic origins seems quite far-fetched doesn't it?
DHK
These movements were first independent of one another, later combined, then divided again in the 20th century. Alexander Campbell was noted for his abilities in debating. He loved to argue and even boasted that an hour of debating was more profitable than an entire day of preaching. Sadly, this proud, argumentive spirit has often been evident among Church of Christ leaders.
The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) was organized nationally in 1968 with headquarters in Dallas, Texas, and has become very ecumenical and modernistic. It is represented in the National and World Council of Churches.
Though there have been differences among Church of Christ congregations concerning things such as the role of elders in the churches, the formation of denominational structures, and whether or not musical instruments should be used in the services, some key distinctives are as follows: (1) Salvation is by faith plus good works. (2) Water baptism is an essential means of salvation (baptismal regeneration). Acts 2:38 is interpreted to mean that baptism remits sins. (3) The Churches of Christ are the only true churches today. (4) Christians should not be called by names other than "Church of Christ," "Disciples," or "Christian." (5) A Christian can lose his salvation. These doctrines are contrary to the teaching of the N.T.; therefore, the Churches of Christ must be avoided in obedience to Ro. 16:17-18.
Way of Life Encyclopedia, David Cloud.
For a denomination that is less than two hundred years old, born out of rebellion and divisiveness to already orthodox doctrine, the claim to apostolic origins seems quite far-fetched doesn't it?
DHK