Church of Christ? What?

[Frank]

Adam:
I try to answer all questions asked of me. However, It is easier for me to deal with one at a time. This is why I respond a number of times to a single post. If the person is sincere they deserve a truthful answer. I have done this. If they are not sincere, and from some of the questions, it appears they are not, I still answer truthfully. I will let God judge the hearts of men.
Finally, I am a 45 year old male who is married to a faithful wife with three faithful children. If you would like to know anythng else about me feel free to ask. I may or may not answer.

Frank

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frank:
I am a Christian, not a Universalist. The Bible teaches that God saves all men who obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16,17;6:17,18, Hebrews 5:8,9. Obviously , all men do not obey the gospel, therefore, all men will not be saved. II Thes. 1:6-9.

And just what is this gospel of yours?</font>[/QUOTE]My question seems to have been missed because it is on the previous page.

Also notice that Cornelius' household received the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized.

[43] To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. - Acts 10:43-48 KJV

They were seal in Christ prior to being baptized with water.

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

 

[Brother Adam]

Like I said just curiuos. Thanks!

Bro. Adam

 

[Frank]

DHK:
I am not a part of a denomination. I do not want to be or have any need to be. II Tim. 3:16,17. I do not wish to be linked with any other rule. I walk by one rule. I follow the New Testament of Christ. You could not prove otherwise if your life depended on it.
Let me give you a little history about your claims. In the year 1805,there was a church of Christ meting in Celina Tenn. In 1807, there was a church of Christ meeting in Bridgeport, Ala. This was several years before any of those men you cited set foot in the United States. Therefore, since the church already existed before the Campbells etc. It would be most difficult to begin that which is already in existence. I can state unequivocally it is impossible to found that which is already founded. if you are going to represent the church at least GET IT RIGHT! I amazed how you think you know so much about the church but are not a member of it.This tells me you do not follow the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Christ founded his church I Cor 3:11. He purchased his people I Cor 6:20, Acts 11:26, Acts 4:12, Isaiah 48:11. It is the height of hypocrisy to tell me what I believe, teach and my origins when you cannot even get history right much less the divine record. If you want to know what the church teaches learn the New Testament!!!
Otherwise, you will continue to show yourself ignorant of the church and the truth. We have no creed book, no council, no man made head or founder. We simply submit to the will of Christ as it is found in the New Testament, no more no less. I have no problem with doing so.
I am speaking, of course, for the church as it is found in Acts 2, not those who do not follow it, or add to it, or take a way from it,or go passed that which is written. Rev 22:18, 19; I Cor. 4:6. Jesus said it is possible to know and live the truth. I believe him John 8:31,32.
Frank

 

[Brother Adam]

"This tells me you do not follow the New Testament of Jesus Christ"

Is this your opinion or a judgement? I'd be careful in my answer

Bro. Adam

 

[Frank]

Dual:
Yes, Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was saved. This was done to prove that the gentiles were equal with the Jews as it concerned their salvation. Acts 10:25-28, 33,34,44-46.
Cornelius was saved the same way all others were saved in the book of Acts. They believed the gospel message proclaimed and submitted to the will of heaven and had their sins washed away. Acts 2:38;22:16,8:36-40;16:30-33;10:47,48.
Frank

 

[Brother Adam]

Frank,

We all would like to claim that our churches origins are that of the Apostles. Actually the Catholic Church has the closest claim to this, as they are one of the earliest founded Churches after the NT church. Now you may follow the principles in the New Testament to the letter of the law, or so to speak, yet your church does not date back to the New Testament. (Handbook of Denominations in the United States, 10th Edition)

Bro. Adam

[ July 20, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
Ormond:
I am a member of the church of Christ.( Acts 2:47, Mat. 16:18,Roms. 16:16). Frank

Your addition of Scripture here is irrelevant to the question posed. You answered it in the affirmative. The discussion is centered around a particular denomination, or for want of a better word "cult." When the differences between your mainline COC and ICC were discussed, you never objected, and said I am different. You belong to the same group, the same cult, the one that started near the beginning of the 19th century. To try and revise history at this point and time is somewhat ridiculous. You would be better off admitting truthfully the origins of your cult/denomination.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Adam:
It is a rational conclusion based on evidence Consider thefollowing:
1. The Bible does not authorize creeds. The contentious party does. Mat. 28:18-20.
2. The Bible does not authorize councils,synods, etc. the contentious party has one.
3. The Bible does not authorize walking by another rule. The contentious party does. Phil 3:16, I Cor. 1:10,11.
The rational mind must conclude by the evidence that the contentious party does not follow the bible concerning these matters. I made a judgement based on the evidence. John 7: 24.
Adam, if I am wrong, he may certainly deny the above three things. I wish he would. I will happily be corrected in this .
Frank

 

[Chemnitz]

By pastoral system I simply mean this as it pertaisn to the denominational world. Most of the religious world has a man called a Pastor he mayor maynot be married. He mayor may not meet the divine qualifications of the scriptures posted. Pastors are elders but elderd don't have to be preachers. Most of the denominational world is organized witha single Pastor, which a violation of the divine instructuions. There are always a plurality of men who serve as elders or pastors or shepherds or bishops or overseers. Next , they have a deacon board. Most participate in some unauthorized convention synod, etc. This system is not found in the pages of the New Testament, and I am not a part of this type Pastoral system. I hope this clears up the misconception about the term Pastoral system.

Tell me where did the Bible forbid the use of conventions or synods inorder for congregations to join together for the purpose of teaching and proclaiming the Gospel? It is neither expressly permitted nor forbidden. The formation of groups of congregations is how we thought it best to provide a combined effort to reach out to the world in Word and Sacrament to proclaim the gospel as commanded by Christ. I do not see how the placement of one pastor to serve one congregation is unbiblical.

claim the name of Christ because it honors him, not a man. What other descriptive term could describe the saved other than the saved belonging to Christ.I cannot believe you said you would not claim the name of the savior. This is totally against the servant concept of the Bible. Romans 10:10, Mat. 10:32,Romans 1:1. The Bible says, in Eph. 3:14,15 " For this cause I bow my knees unot the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ of whom the whole family of the earth is named. I guess the Kingdom of his dear Son is not good enough for you. Col. 1:12,13.

I don't see where you got the idea that I thought I was too good for Christ. I freely admit that I am a Christian and as such a member of His body and of His church. My point was just because a denomination calls itself the "Church of Christ" does not make it the true Church of Christ.

Have you actually studied the denominational creeds? If you have,compare them to what I have posted and practice.Let's take Cobbs or Hiscox's baptist manual. Then let's compare it to the teachings of the New Testament. If they were the same, logic dictates to me, I would not need the manual. If you wish, take any of the denominational creed books and compare them to the New Testament. Then, post what you have found by comparison and contrast. Let me know what you find out by your research.

I have studied the creeds and confessions. However, I will admit the only one I am familiar with in great detail is the Lutheran confessions as found in the Book of Concord. Let me get this straight we believe that the Whole of Scripture is final authority. I have found our creeds (apostle, nicene, and athenasian) and confessions to be the proper exposition of the whole of Scripture, OT and NT. As for scriptural authorization for the use of creeds and confessions. God did not give out a manual on what tools to use to teach his disciples and the creeds and confessions are valuable tools for teaching the faith and defending against heresy. And using the creeds and confessions as tool is how we go about following the command in Mt 28.

The first day of the week follows the sabbath or Sat. Oh, and by the way, PENTECOST ALWAYS FELL ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. Lev. 23:15,16. It is also called the Lord's Day. Rev. 1:11.
Please tell me where God said we needed creeds to make disciples? Book, chapter and verse please? By what authority do you do these things? Col. 3:17.
Frank

First I can tell you that you are flat out wrong about any command that worship must be done on Sunday(Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:5-6; Gal. 4:10-11).
Sabboth starts evening on Friday and ends in the evening on Saturday as that is the seventh day by the Hebrew calendar. The phrase the Lord's day is an eschatalogical phrase that means it will happen when God wants it to happen. For somebody who claims to follow NT rules for the practice of the church I find your use of OT to back your argument to be inconsistant. Sunday was choosen because of one that is the day of the Resurrection. It is a human tradition to worship on Sundays. Churches still offer worship services at various times during the week to allow people a chance to worship when they can.

Again there is no specific instruction for creeds or confessions. However, neither is it forbidden. They are valuable tools for following the command of Christ (Mt 28:19) and are used to the edification of the church.

Bythe way, your statement about the Lord's Supper was unsubstantiated opinion. Where does it say the Lord's Supper represents the literal blood and body of Christ. I do not believe transubstantiation as it is not found in the pages of the New Testament. Have a good one.

Neither do I believe in transubstantiation. The RCC went to far and ignored scripture in their use of Aristotilian physics. However I do believe that the Body and Blood are present in/with/under(a fancy way of saying it is physically there just not sure as to exactly how) the Bread and Wine. Because it is both attested to by both the words of Christ and later in the epistles(Mt 26:26-29,Mk 14:22-25, Lk 22:18-20, 1 Cor 11:23-29,). Christ flat out said this is my body, He never said this is like my body or this represents my body, He just said this is my body. And in 1 Cor 11 it is attested that it is both body and blood; bread and wine at the same time.

 

[Frank]

dhk:
The Bible is NEVER IRRELEVANT. I have answered from the divine volume. You are becoming more like the man Paul descibed in I Cor. 14:37. If you want denominationalism, God will let you have it. II Thes.2:11,12.
I choose to follow the New Testament and be a member of his body the church of Acts 2. You choose to feebly attempt to tell someone they cannot do what God says they can. John 8:31,32.

You make assertions you cannot prove. I have followed the divien teaching. Prove ALL things. I Thes 5:21. Of course, some do not accept the evidence. Jesus had the same experience. Jn 5:39.
Jesus said, these things are written that ye might believe. I accept his word no more no less. Jn. 20;30,31.
I have not represented you about what you believe without evidence from what you have posted. I have not claimed you believe any particular thing unless you have provided it through evidence. I have simply and to the best of my ability followed the teaching of I Peter 3:15. There are two and only two options for all men... ACCEPT OR REJECT IT! John 12:48

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dual:
Yes, Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was saved. This was done to prove that the gentiles were equal with the Jews as it concerned their salvation. Acts 10:25-28, 33,34,44-46.
Cornelius was saved the same way all others were saved in the book of Acts. They believed the gospel message proclaimed and submitted to the will of heaven and had their sins washed away. Acts 2:38;22:16,8:36-40;16:30-33;10:47,48.
Frank

[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: - 1 Peter 3:21 KJV

It is not being immersed in water which can wash only physical dirt, but the plege of trust in Christ that saves.

[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5 KJV

You also ignored Ephesians 1, under the New Covenant in Christ's blood, people who put their trust in Christ are sealed by the Holy Spirit and these people were sealed after trusting in Christ just as Ephesians 1 says and they had not yet been baptized with water.

The main thing I'd like answered is the questino which you have twice skipped now:

Just what is this gospel of yours?

 

[Frank]

Chem:
By having a creed, I must conclude you do not accept II Tim. 3:16,17. In order for a thing to be expedient, it must first be lawful. I Cor 6:12. Creeds are not lawful, because they are not authorized. Therefore, they are not expedients.
I have the all sufficient word. Mat. 28:18-20, II Tim 3:16,17, II Pet. 1:3, Jude 3. Therefore, I do not need a creed to make disciples. I have the New Testament to do so. It provides ALL THINGS to be TAUGHT AND COMMANDED. Mat. 28:18-20.
Frank

 

[Frank]

Dual:
I Have answered the question. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16. Jesus said to repent and believe it Mk. 1:15. He died for it I Cor. 15:1-4. It is a form of doctirne that sets men free from sin and makes them the servant of rigtheousness. Roms. 6:17,18. It is the teachings authorized by Jesus. Mat. 28:18-20. The gospel brings eternal salvation to all those who obey him. Hebrews 5:8,9.
Jesus said one must believe Jn. 8:24.
Repent. Luke 13:3,5
Confess him. Mat. 10:32.
Baptized. Mk. 16:16. Acts 2:38.
Be faithful. Rev. 2:10.
This is good news. Salvation through the gracious provisions of God in his Son. Eph. 1:7, Gal. 3:26-29, II Tim. 2:10

 

[Brother Adam]

Frank,

You are talking an awful lot about the law here. Do you find yourself under the law?

Bro. Adam

 

[Frank]

dhk:
I reviewed Ormond's original post. It does not speak to the question of the ICC at all.In fact, he simply makes seven assertions. I responded Biblically based on the post.
Frank

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Dual:
I Have answered the question. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:16. Jesus said to repent and believe it Mk. 1:15. He died for it I Cor. 15:1-4. It is a form of doctirne that sets men free from sin and makes them the servant of rigtheousness. Roms. 6:17,18. It is the teachings authorized by Jesus. Mat. 28:18-20. The gospel brings eternal salvation to all those who obey him. Hebrews 5:8,9.
Jesus said one must believe Jn. 8:24.
Repent. Luke 13:3,5
Confess him. Mat. 10:32.
Baptized. Mk. 16:16. Acts 2:38.
Be faithful. Rev. 2:10.
This is good news. Salvation through the gracious provisions of God in his Son. Eph. 1:7, Gal. 3:26-29, II Tim. 2:10

Rather than sticking a whole bunch of different verses and passages together, lets try using the definition in 1 Corinthians 15, notice that baptism is not mentioned:

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
[7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
[8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
[9] For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
[11] Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 KJV

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
dhk:
The Bible is NEVER IRRELEVANT.

I never said the Bible was irrelevant; I said the references that you attached to the end of your answer to the original question being asked in this thread were irrelevant. You said you were a member of the Church of Christ. That denomination started at the beginning of the 19th century. If you are a member of the International Church of Christ, then your "cult" only started some 36 years ago, in 1967. Of which are you a member, the mainline Church of Christ, or the International Church of Christ. At least Sola was not ashamed to come out and say so.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Adam:
You accept the claims of men. I follow the Bible. Men asseert a number of things. the question is it truthful based on the evidence. I use the Bible , not man made creeds. I dop nto care for what secular people claim. Thye are wrong as it pertaisn to this matter. The evidnece I provided proves it. Besides, I find it rather funny one would consider man more reliable than God's word.
Frank

 

[Brother Adam]

Frank,

How am I accepting the claims of man?
Who said that they consider the man more reliable then God's word?

Bro. Adam

PS- please slow down typing, you are making alot of spelling mistakes and it's hard to make out what your saying.

[ July 20, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]