church of Christ

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom Butler:And I'll repeat an earlier scripture, Titus 3:6

?Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."

May I say again "Not by works of righteousness..."

HP: Tom, the Scripture you point to is indeed true, BUT it speaks to the grounds of salvation. It is absolutely true that nothing man can do is meritorious in salvation, neither is anything that man does considered in the sense of ‘that for the sake of,’ or the grounds of salvation. The grounds of salvation is none other than the mercy and grace of God. The sacrifice of Christ, by the life and shedding of His blood are the only meritorious works involved in salvation.

So again, speaking of the grounds of salvation, the verse you quote is indeed true and correct. That does not preclude the notion that indeed God has mandated conditions for man to fulfill that involve the will of man, ‘without which’ none shall be saved just as the prison illustration illustrates the principles involved. It can be said that salvation is apart from the will of man, again referring to the grounds of salvation, while at the same time salvation indeed does involve the will of man thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ We are not saved for the sake of our wills, but neither will any be saved apart from our wills involvement in the fulfilling of the conditions of salvation, which are; faith, repentance and continued obedience to the end.

 

[annsni]

Salvation is conditional, even believing takes human work to incorporate, I really am not sure why this is so hard. Nowhere does it say that all works are excluded from salvation. Since the word works is a bad word to so many it gets thrown out all together.

Works come FROM the salvation - it does not cause it. Belief happens because God causes it - not man.

I would still like someone to explain to me how one repents before he believes. Does God repent for you? Is repentance required for forgiveness? Does God save the sinner in an unrepentant state?

One repents when God opens one's eyes to the truth. No man can do it on his own.

Why is it that man can read the word and believe, was that something that man did? Why give us the word if we cannot even function in accepting it, because it "merits" our salvation?

1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly addresses this "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." Man CANNOT read the Word and believe. God needs to reveal it to him.

One is not saved by faith alone, mere belief only gives a man the right to become a child of God.

This is in clear contradiction to Scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 is lying if what you say is true.

A side note: Heavenly Pilgrim asked me about the baptism to which I refered in my last post. I would answer that the baptism that saves is the one that God commanded to be taken to the whole world in making disciples (Matthew 28:18,19) It is the one that can be administered by man to man for the reasons that are so plainly given in scripture. It is amazing that such simple statements can be so hard for people to accept.

You are completely wrong in this. Baptism never saves.

You know that John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sins!

Luke 3:3

3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,NKJVWe also find that those who refuse this baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins were not doing God's will.


Luke 7:29-30

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
NKJV

The baptism for repentance was a Jewish practice. It did not make one justified in the eyes of the Lord.

I bet there are few who struggle with the concepts of what Jesus means and says in

Matt 26:28

28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.NKJV
Jesus said that his blood would be shed so that our sins could be forgiven.

No one struggles with what Jesus said. It always took blood to cleanse the stain of sin from a person. The blood of Christ was shed to satisfy the necessity of the shed blood once and for all.

Then why is it so hard when Peter uses the same wording to describe Baptism:


Acts 2:38
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Because it's not the baptism that saves.

Why is it later in Peter's epistle that he connects Noah being saved by water with the statement that "Baptism does now save us" I know I will be accused of not considering the context, but the context is about water and souls saved by it in Noahs day.

How did the water save Noah? If water comes and floods your home, is it the water that saves you? Or might it just be the boat that you climb in to? It was not the water that saved but the boat. In the same way, it's not the water that saves us, but the resurrection of Christ.

What about the three accounts of the great commission, have we looked at them all together and figured out which baptism Jesus refers to?

Baptism is an ordinance - a command of the Lord for us to follow. It has no saving powers in and of itself. If it could, then Jesus didn't have to die. It is only by the shed blood of the Lamb of God that we are saved. We are saved before we go down into that water and we are saved when we come up.

 

[donnA]

the Bible clearly says that we are saved by works.

salvation by works is 'another gospel' foreign to scripture, a 'salvation' obtained by works is no salvation at all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: salvation by works is 'another gospel' foreign to scripture, a 'salvation' obtained by works is no salvation at all.

HP: Are you judging the salvation of those holding to COC doctrine, even if it is in error in some ways? If not why not?

 

[annsni]

HP: Are you judging the salvation of those holding to COC doctrine, even if it is in error in some ways? If not why not?

If a person is going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and if asked why they would get into heaven, they say "Because I was baptized for the forgiveness of my sins", is that a true salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Belief happens because God causes it - not man.

HP: When you deny the involvement of man’s will in faith, belief, repentance, continuance there remains but one alternative with its necessitated end, i.e., God is the sole cause of both those that receive AND those that do not received this causation from God. If that is the case, double predestination is a necessitated consequence of such beliefs. I for one find that to be a most wicked blight to place upon the character of a Holy and Just God.

 

[annsni]

HP: When you deny the involvement of man’s will in faith, belief, repentance, continuance there remains but one alternative with its necessitated end, i.e., God is the sole cause of both those that receive AND those that do not received this causation from God. If that is the case, double predestination is a necessitated consequence of such beliefs. I for one find that to be a most wicked blight to place upon the character of a Holy and Just God.

Well, I certainly don't believe in double predestination but I know that sinful man can NOT choose God on his own. It just can't happen. No man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. 1 Cor. 2:14, as I posted earlier tells us that the natural man cannot accept the things of God because they are a folly to him - that he can NOT on his own understand the Gospel and come to Christ. That's pretty clear in Scripture from what I've seen.

 

[Darron Steele]

Salvation is conditional.

One must:
believe, repent, confess, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

I will just go back to the start.

To believe and to repent cannot be separated. A person who believes simultaneously repents.

Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). Acts 16:31b says “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). If a person truly has a conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord, then s/he will immediately repent of living however s/he sees fit.

People who think that faith and repentance are distinguishable things have a low view of faith. If they have such a `faith' then it is no wonder that they think faith is worthless.

Confession and baptism are separate deeds done after faith. There is not one passage of Scripture that teaches that those who fail to make oral confession or fail to get baptized will be condemned.

There is, however, this:

Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).​

It is not complicated. We are not saved due to our works. However, after we are "saved through faith," the faith that we have in Jesus Christ as Lord will motivate us to live accordingly "unto good works."

Jesus Christ forecast the same.

John 6:28-9 says “The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).​

When these people asked for a plurality of “works” to “do,” Jesus had just one -- belief on Him. In Paul's terminology, he does not classify "faith" as a work, which was a license given to him by the Lord. Still, the teaching is the same: a person who believes on Jesus Christ as Lord fulfills what the Lord prescribes for salvation.

There is yet another clear statement in Scripture about this: As Peter was preaching about Jesus Christ, he said

Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).​

Oral confession and baptism are obligations of every capable and rightly-knowing believer. They should never be taken lightly. Responsible Christians should be very serious about new converts making confession and being baptized. New converts should feel an immense obligation to do these things if they are not mute and if they have a known opportunity to be baptized. Still, the Bible is clear -- as believers, they are assured of salvation.

I will close with Matthew 28:19-20a where Jesus Christ said

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you” (NASB|NCV).​

Per Acts 11:26, "Christians" renames “disciples” in that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB), and Greek rendered “baptize” means “completely submerge,”* so we are to “completely submerge” people who are “disciples” = Christians. If people are not Christians until after they begin to come up from baptism, then we would not "completely submerge" "disciples" and so it would be impossible to obey this passage. This would be only one Bible contradiction of many Bible contradictions if believers are not saved until after baptism.

It is best to simply accept the plain statements of Scripture: believers on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved for their faith, and assured of salvation.


______
*Stamatis, Catechetical Handbook of the Eastern Orthodox Church, page 191.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Could we possibly need to be reminded of this verse? 1Jo 5:12 “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” No where does it say ‘he that hath right doctrine hath life, and he that does not have right doctrine hath not life.’

I am of the opinion that one can be saved in spite of erroneous teachings such as water baptism as being condition of salvation. IF one is truly trusting in water baptism to save them, they well may found not in Christ in the last day, but it is also entirely possible that they, in spite of their false belief, have trusted in Christ by faith to save them and as such be truly saved. By the fruits of their life, not always by the doctrines they hold to, will it be evident that God has indeed done a good work in their heart.

Just as Wesley found his heart strangely warmed by the Moravian brothers and sisters, he still instinctively knew that he could never be part of that group due to clear doctrinal differences. Wesley showed us a good example of Christian charity in his love and acceptance of the Moravians as true Christian brothers in the Lord. I believe it our Christian duty to show charity, kindness, and yes even acceptance of others with different doctrinal positions as fellow believers, if in fact they show fruits in their lives of Christian character. The fruits of the spirit are what? Doctrine? Scripture tells us the following. Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Well, I certainly don't believe in double predestination but I know that sinful man can NOT choose God on his own.

HP: With that I concur. Bear in mind that God’s dealings with man are passive, not coercive in salvation. He draws, not coerces. He knocks at our hearts door, not simply forcing or coercing His way in. Man is required to anser the knock and voluntarily open the door in order to be saved. That takes an act of the will.

Ann: It just can't happen. No man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

HP: I agree. Jesus sia, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.” That does not say that all that are drawn will be saved, or all would be saved. I know neither of us are universalists so we must conclude that the disconnect in some being lost is not a failure on God’s part to draw, but on man’s part in rebellion against God’s drawing. Man can indeed resist the drawing of God.

Ann: 1 Cor. 2:14, as I posted earlier tells us that the natural man cannot accept the things of God because they are a folly to him - that he can NOT on his own understand the Gospel and come to Christ. That's pretty clear in Scripture from what I've seen.

HP: Agreed. The Holy Spirit must indeed enlighten the heart of man, but again that enlightenment, that drawing, is passive and can be resisted by man.

 

[annsni]

I will just go back to the start.

To believe and to repent cannot be separated. A person who believes simultaneously repents.

Hebrews 11:1 describes “faith” as “an assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of unseen realities” (NBV). Acts 16:31b says “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). If a person truly has a conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord, then s/he will immediately repent of living however s/he sees fit.

People who think that faith and repentance are distinguishable things have a low view of faith. If they have such a `faith' then it is no wonder that they think faith is worthless.

Darron - I remember reading somewhere that believing and repenting are the opposite sides of the same coin. When you believe on Jesus Christ, we change our mind from the way we were going - we "repent". It doesn't mean to be sorry for our sins since God repented too and we know He's sinless. It is to change our mind from where we were going to a new direction. I know so many say that we don't need repentance to become Christians but if we turn to Christ, we change our course of direction. As you said, you can't separate the two.

 

[annsni]

HP: With that I concur. Bear in mind that God’s dealings with man are passive, not coercive in salvation. He draws, not coerces. He knocks at our hearts door, not simply forcing or coercing His way in. Man is required to anser the knock and voluntarily open the door in order to be saved. That takes an act of the will.


HP: I agree. Jesus sia, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.” That does not say that all that are drawn will be saved, or all would be saved. I know neither of us are universalists so we must conclude that the disconnect in some being lost is not a failure on God’s part to draw, but on man’s part in rebellion against God’s drawing. Man can indeed resist the drawing of God.


HP: Agreed. The Holy Spirit must indeed enlighten the heart of man, but again that enlightenment, that drawing, is passive and can be resisted by man.

So we're on the same page.

It's from here that maybe we differ - but I'm not fully certain of things yet. I know that God wishes for all to be saved but not all are. I do believe in predestination - but I also believe that there is in some way man's will involved here too. I agree with Spurgeon that we CAN have both in place and not understand it - that God's ways don't always make sense to us in our finite minds. So I'm a Calvinimian. Or is that an Armivinist?? Not too sure. What I DO know is that man cannot come to God without God. And those who come to Christ are truly His. To God be the glory!

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron - I remember reading somewhere that believing and repenting are the opposite sides of the same coin. When you believe on Jesus Christ, we change our mind from the way we were going - we "repent". It doesn't mean to be sorry for our sins since God repented too and we know He's sinless. It is to change our mind from where we were going to a new direction. I know so many say that we don't need repentance to become Christians but if we turn to Christ, we change our course of direction. As you said, you can't separate the two.

Right.

Some people are `sorry' but they will not change: they refuse to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord. To repent means to decide `I have been living wrongly, and that will change: I have decided to follow Jesus, He is now my Lord, and I will live accordingly.'

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: I remember reading somewhere that believing and repenting are the opposite sides of the same coin. When you believe on Jesus Christ, we change our mind from the way we were going - we "repent". It doesn't mean to be sorry for our sins since God repented too and we know He's sinless. It is to change our mind from where we were going to a new direction. I know so many say that we don't need repentance to become Christians but if we turn to Christ, we change our course of direction. As you said, you can't separate the two.

HP: Repentance is not simply the necessitated results of belief. Man is called on first to repent, then to believe. The prophets of old came preaching repentance. Jesus first message ever recorded was, “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Paul and the apostles preached repentance, not as merely the necessitated results of belief, but rather as an action of the will that must be taken, without which no salvation is possible.

The greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen was founded on a clarion call to repentance, again, as an act of the will as opposed to a necessitated result of belief. God calls upon men, and that in the form of a command, everywhere to repent, then believe, and to remain faithful to the end.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: I agree with Spurgeon that we CAN have both in place and not understand it –

HP: Certainly we all can have uncertainties in our theology, but we should never entertain absurdities, to say nothing of placing absurdities upon God in the name of ‘His way are higher than our ways.’

It is an absurdity to believe that God is the sole cause of mans salvation and deny double predestination. Double predestination is the logical end, and the only logical end, of that position.

I am glad, none the less, that you see the error of that which Calvin admitted was the logical and inescapable end of his theology, i.e., double predestination.

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Grace Trumps !!!

 

[annsni]

HP: Certainly we all can have uncertainties in our theology, but we should never entertain absurdities, to say nothing of placing absurdities upon God in the name of ‘His way are higher than our ways.’

It is an absurdity to believe that God is the sole cause of mans salvation and deny double predestination. Double predestination is the logical end, and the only logical end, of that position.

I am glad, none the less, that you see the error of that which Calvin admitted was the logical and inescapable end of his theology, i.e., double predestination.

IF God was responsible for man's sin, then He would be responsible for their punishment. But He's not - so it's not double predestination. He does not predestine some to hell and some to heaven. All are headed to hell - it is just that some are saved by His grace. I do think that it is God's calling and just maybe not all are called. But "double predestination" means that He chooses the destination of people twice and that's not what happens.

 

[BD17]

HP: Certainly we all can have uncertainties in our theology, but we should never entertain absurdities, to say nothing of placing absurdities upon God in the name of ‘His way are higher than our ways.’

It is an absurdity to believe that God is the sole cause of mans salvation and deny double predestination. Double predestination is the logical end, and the only logical end, of that position.

I am glad, none the less, that you see the error of that which Calvin admitted was the logical and inescapable end of his theology, i.e., double predestination.

More absurdity from HP there is no double predestination.

 

[DHK]

HP: Are you judging the salvation of those holding to COC doctrine, even if it is in error in some ways? If not why not?

If you were to die right now, and stand before God, and He were to ask you: "Why should I let you into my heaven,?" what would you answer?

 

[sj]

Morgan, I can't help but ask, when you go back to visit your Mom, do they let you take communion?