church of Christ

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Heavenly Pilgrim is correct.

In Romans 10:14 says, "HOW then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and HOW shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and HOW shall they hear without a preacher?

You was partially correct, that you saying, the reason why people go to hell, because they reject Jesus Christ. But, there is more than that. Millions, and millions of innocent people are in hell, for never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That why, Christ gave his great commission to us that we must go and tell the gospel to every person over the world to get saved.

Millions of souls go to hell, not because of 'bad' or, 'innocent for never heard the gospel'. The reason is, they are in hell, because, they were remain in their sins with them since they were born(physical) from their mothers womb come from Adam- Romans 5:12.

ALL of us were born dead spiritually(Eph. 2:1).

That why, Bible commands us all that, we must be born again in order for salvation. If anyone who refuse to be born again by heard the gospel, or never have been born again, therefore, they are remain in sins with them, their sins bring them toward hell.

That's what the gospel is for.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Alive in Christ]

H P...

I said...

AIC: When a person is justified through faith alone...the only way to BE justified...a new creature comes into existence."

And you asked...

"Could you point to the verse that states that we are saved by faith alone? I have not read that one."

You have never read Ephesians 2: 8-9?...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of youreselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"

Faith alone, as it clearly says. Any form or "works" or "doing good" is clearly excluded.

And of course that is just the highest tip of the iceberg. The principle ie re-enforced over and over and over again by multitudes upon multitudes of passages of scripture.

"We have been told that all believers are liars and that we cannot live above sin, and that all believers sin, so how is that consistent with wanting to please God,

I find it very difficult to believe that someone born again, as I certainly assume you are, can be so seemingly clueless as to the truth of Jesus Christ living His life in and through us, and as to the clear teachings in the scriptures regarding the fact that the Holy Spirit will begin expressing Himself in and through us as we grow in Christ.

In light of all of that, how can you question the idea that we are given knew wants and desires after we are regenerated? New desires that please God rather than displease Him?

I'm not talking about perfection. I am talking about a new way of living, that seeks to please God.

Me...

"For the rest of his or her life, they will be living with the desire to "put on" things that please God, and to "put off" things that do not please God."

You...

"That is indeed what we are suppose to do if we desire to remain in Christ,

NO! We do not live that way in order to be able to remain in Him. Once we are born of the Spirit, there is no possibility of ever not being "in Christ" There is no "I hope I can remain in Him" in the christians life. We are Gods posession...FOREVER.

God keeps US.

WE do not keep GOD.


:godisgood:

 

[Amy.G]

God keeps US.

WE do not keep GOD.


:godisgood:

AMEN!

Jude*1:1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Preserved:
G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Most Baptists believe that we are saved by the faith only.

But, in James 2:24 says: "Ye see then how that by works a man is jusitified, and NOT by faith only."

Bible teaches us that both faith and work both go together.

I suggest you, read throughout James 2:17-26 , the context talks about faith and work relates with Abraham's life.

Many people saying, we are saved by the faith only, not by works. But, in James 2:17 says, "Even so faith, IF it hath NOT works, DEAD, being alone."

This verses means that, people claim, do have faith, but do not do thier works, then, therefore they are DEAD-spiritually death. That means, their faith are worhtless in the sight of the Lord.

James 2:20 says, "But wilt you know, O vain man, that faith WITHOUT works is dead?" In my translate of this verse, it means, 'Didn't you realize that, you do have faith, but no works, then, your spirit is DEAD?!'

This verse is written to us as believers, not lost (unsaved) people. "Dead", which, speaking of spiritually death is lead to the lake of fire.

In Romans 6:23 tells us clear, "For the wages of sin is 'DEATH'..." it speaks of everlasting punishment in lake of fire.

In James 1:15-16 warn us: "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH. Do NOT ERR, my beloved brethren." This passage was written to us as Christians, not unsaved people. what IF we continue sinning, it would bringing us to death, which will lead us toward "second death" in the lake of fire. LEST happen to us.

James 4:17 tells us, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is SIN."

Bible tells us that, there is difference 'life' and 'death'. 'Life' represents, salvation - eternal life. 'Death' represents, everlasting punishment in lake of fire.

Now back to James chapter 2. Notice important verse 14 of James chapter 2, it says: "What doth it profit, my brethren, through a man say he hath faith, and not works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?".

Of course, this verse tells us, NO! faith only cannot save us, without doing works.

Baptists saying, "we are saved by the faith ONLY." But, James 2:14 tells us, faith only cannot saved us, by NOT doing the works.

See, in James 2:21 says: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the atlar?" It tells us, that Abraham was jusitified by his works with obedience God's command, to offer his son Isaac upon the atlar.

Look next verse - James 2:22 says, "Seest thou HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, and by works was FAITH MADE PERFECT?"

Word, 'wrought' means works or being produce.

Many Baptists saying faith means believe without sight. They are partially correct. But, there is more than just "believe" or "faith".

Faith is an action and functional.

God interestings in person who is DOING than just listening according James 1:22- "Doers".

Sadly, there are too many hearers in churches in America today. They are not obey God's command. Therefore, they are sin against God - James 4:17.

Baptists and religions ought to understand what the true definition of 'faith' what it means.

JSM17, Heavenily Pilgrim, and I all do believe on Eph. 2:8-9 100%. We do not ignore Eph. 2:8-9. YES we are saved by the grace THROUGH FAITH! Not of works.

I understand that Baptists always stress or emphasis on Ephesians 2:8-9, that we are saved by faith only. But, they seem not actually understand the word -'faith' what it means.

I better stop now. I think this post is already long. So, I better make another post to continue on James 2.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I am continue discuss on James chapter 2.

James 2:23 says, "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

This verses tells us, Abraham did believed in God. 'Believed' doesn't mean that, Abraham was onced believe in God for one time event. This tells us that, Abraham did continued believing in God till his death. So, therefore, Bible give the records that Abraham finished his life of his faith, because he did obeyed God. That why, it called Abraham, 'the Friend of God'.

Nowhere in Genesis telling us that, Abraham did stop believing in God during in his life till his death.

James 2:24 tells us, that person is justified, by doing works, and NOT by faith only, as what many Baptists teaching.

James 2:25 - "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" This verse tells us, in my interpreting of this verse says: 'Didn't you know or realized that Rahab, the harlot was justifed by works, when she received words from two spies, and she had to sent them out another way?"

Today, many baptist churches are doing 'Easy Believism' of soul winning toward people. When Baptists witness to people, "The only way that you can go to heaven by believe on Jesus Christ". In another word, "You can simply only accept Jesus Christ to be saved, can go heaven."

But, Rahab, the harlot, she was called harlot, while she was still pracitically harlot life by the time, two spies came to her house. When she received words from them. She believed them, but, more than just 'believe' in them, she had to take their words with her action and obedience by sent them in other way to hide & escape. She was justified by her actions with her faith. After Jericho was destroyed, Rahab and her family was remain alive, then she became no longer hersler harlot, she got married just shortly after the destruction of Jericho. Because she did repented of her sins, by have faith in God.

James 2:26 says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is DEAD also."

James made the point that, the comparing between body/spirit & faith/works. We all have body of course, even, same time, we all have soul/spirit within our body. When once soul/spirit departs from our body, then our body is dead, it means that, when once our soul/spirit departs from our body, then we are dead(physical), no more live again. In cases, I heard few true stories, at the hospitals, some doctors, nurses, and even, Christians claim that, they saw dying person's soul depart from body, the dying person finally die completely.

Same common sense that, the faith is separated from works is DEAD(spiritually)! That means person's faith is worthless in the sights of God.

Bible is clear teaching us that both faith and works must go merge together at same time, therefore, we are justified.

True, we are saved by the faith. Understand faith always come first before work. Our works cannot be produce or functional unless we have faith together.

Either -

faith without works - dead

works without faith- dead

Both are no difference between, Both are dead -that's period.

The Bible teaches us that faith is an action and funcational, that, could produce works to be functional.

Hebrews chapter 11 shows us very clear of the list on the heros of O.T. saints, all of them were saved by their faith through their action and obedience toward God. This chapter shows us, that they already done in their lifetime what they done with obedience toward God. Now they are in the heaven with the Lord, because they did obeyed God.

If we desire to have eternal life, then, we have to follow Christ with obedience while we have faith in Him at the same time.

Faith is conditional, not unconditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

By the way,

I would to say something one more thing on james chapter 2.

Some saying, think there is conflict between Paul and James' teaching on Abraham's faith & work. That they have been discuss on comparing of Romans 4:2-5 and James 2:21-24. They saying both are conflict. They say that Romans 4 tells Abraham was saved by his faith, while James2 tells that Abraham was saved by his works.

There is no difference between Romans 4 and James 2. Both are same.

In Romans 4:4 telling us, that Abraham was working is the reward, not because of counted by the grace, but of debt.

I understand 'debt' of Romans 4:4 is pictured as sin.

Suppose, if we do not serve the Lord, we are sinning against God- James 4:17. Our sins would bring us to hell, unlcess we repent again, and to obey God, doing the right things and to serve Him.

OSAS people saying, when we will face before the judgment seat of Christ to jude our works. Some shall suffering loss their works, means that, they will lose their rewards, but not lose salvation, while they are still saved.

Nowhere in Bible saying that unfaithful servant would suffer lose their reward, and still saved.

In Matt. 25:14-30 teaching us of three different types of servants. Their same master(boss) give the tasks(talents)to them that, the master expects that they are suppose to use it and to obey him.

Verse 26-30 tell us, when an lazy servant faces his master, that servant do have one talent, but refuse to use it, he hide it away. Because that servant disobey his master. Master(Christ) will called servant, "lazy and WICKED, that lazy servant will lose thr blessing and reward, BUT, verse 30 tells us, that wicked servant will be send away into EVERLASTING punishment - lake of fire.

Matt. 25:13-30 is clear apply to us as servants, what will be happen at the judgment seat of Christ follow at His coming. Many lazy servants will suffering lose the reward, BUT, also, they will be send away to everlasting fire - lake of fire.

Obivious, Matt. 25:14-30 teaching us that our salvation is conditional, that we must obedience our Lord- Jesus Christ, if we do not obey His commandments, then we would end up in the lake of fire!!!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AliveinChrist:
"Faith alone, as it clearly says. Any form or "works" or "doing good" is clearly excluded."

GE:
How is that? 'Faith' is a work, an act of obedience to the Command(ment) of God. 'Faith' / 'to believe' is a work of man's doing. It cannot and it does not, save', alone or in conjunction with other works.

"You are SAVED BY GRACE". Faith that is not the gift as well as the work of God in us, is not the faith that saves. "One Lord" who saves; "one baptism" that saves; "one faith" that saves. 'Faith' that NO MAN has or can do of or by himself -- not even in 'colaboration' ('synergism').

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Salvation is conditional.

One must:
believe, repent, confess, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

GE:
You forgot another condition of 'cog' for 'salvation', 'Thou shalt not believe in Jesus Christ Lord and God'. Or do I confuse two denominations? Is 'COG' not the same as 'COC'? If in SA, you say, 'Church of Christ' it's automatically 'of latter day saints'. They, just like 'Churches of God' (with or without 'Seventh Day') in SA it's automatically Arians, Marcionites, 'monotheists', 'unitarians' ---- what's the difs?

 

[annsni]

8 Stephens 1550 Textus receptus
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistew V kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

Scrivener 1894 Tex. Rec.
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistew V kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

Byzantine Majority
th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia ths pistew V kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

This is scripture, it is not an interpretion, it is not a commentary, these are manuscripts showing the definite article that is removed in translation because of a bias and misunderstanding of the purpose of the definite article. There are more than these but I thought that this would be enough. Read them, its right there.

There are many places in the N.T. were faith is translated without the definite article to which misleads people to think it is always talking about our faith and not the faith, to which out faith comes from.

Notice thst these are "MAJORITY" texts!

The transliterated greek is NOT my interpretation it is scripture that has been mis- translated for years.

Open mind, open heart!



Actually I am saying that it does not say that and it is not of yourselves and it does not refer to your faith but "THE FAITH"

THE FAITH, IT DOES NOT SAY "YOUR" FAITH, DOES IT? Evenwithout this the context says nothing about your faith, why is it so hard to see plain scripture, did you even look at it or reseach it before throwing it off as my interpretation.

Is anyone getting this? Is it that hard?

Yes it is that hard since you are reading something that's not there. If the article is so important, why does the verse in the KJV not use it? The article can be used to say "the faith" or "your faith" equally. Even if it says "the faith" - we are saved by it - by the faith that God gives us.

Are you getting this? Is it that hard?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

Scripture is clear. God is not a liar. I will follow what the Word of God says over a man that I've never met.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ann,

Care explain what the definition of 'faith', what it means? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[annsni]

Most Baptists believe that we are saved by the faith only.

But, in James 2:24 says: "Ye see then how that by works a man is jusitified, and NOT by faith only."

Bible teaches us that both faith and work both go together.

I suggest you, read throughout James 2:17-26 , the context talks about faith and work relates with Abraham's life.

Many people saying, we are saved by the faith only, not by works. But, in James 2:17 says, "Even so faith, IF it hath NOT works, DEAD, being alone."

This verses means that, people claim, do have faith, but do not do thier works, then, therefore they are DEAD-spiritually death. That means, their faith are worhtless in the sight of the Lord.

James 2:20 says, "But wilt you know, O vain man, that faith WITHOUT works is dead?" In my translate of this verse, it means, 'Didn't you realize that, you do have faith, but no works, then, your spirit is DEAD?!'

This verse is written to us as believers, not lost (unsaved) people. "Dead", which, speaking of spiritually death is lead to the lake of fire.

In Romans 6:23 tells us clear, "For the wages of sin is 'DEATH'..." it speaks of everlasting punishment in lake of fire.

In James 1:15-16 warn us: "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH. Do NOT ERR, my beloved brethren." This passage was written to us as Christians, not unsaved people. what IF we continue sinning, it would bringing us to death, which will lead us toward "second death" in the lake of fire. LEST happen to us.

James 4:17 tells us, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is SIN."

Bible tells us that, there is difference 'life' and 'death'. 'Life' represents, salvation - eternal life. 'Death' represents, everlasting punishment in lake of fire.

Now back to James chapter 2. Notice important verse 14 of James chapter 2, it says: "What doth it profit, my brethren, through a man say he hath faith, and not works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?".

Of course, this verse tells us, NO! faith only cannot save us, without doing works.

Baptists saying, "we are saved by the faith ONLY." But, James 2:14 tells us, faith only cannot saved us, by NOT doing the works.

See, in James 2:21 says: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the atlar?" It tells us, that Abraham was jusitified by his works with obedience God's command, to offer his son Isaac upon the atlar.

Look next verse - James 2:22 says, "Seest thou HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, and by works was FAITH MADE PERFECT?"

Word, 'wrought' means works or being produce.

Many Baptists saying faith means believe without sight. They are partially correct. But, there is more than just "believe" or "faith".

Faith is an action and functional.

God interestings in person who is DOING than just listening according James 1:22- "Doers".

Sadly, there are too many hearers in churches in America today. They are not obey God's command. Therefore, they are sin against God - James 4:17.

Baptists and religions ought to understand what the true definition of 'faith' what it means.

JSM17, Heavenily Pilgrim, and I all do believe on Eph. 2:8-9 100%. We do not ignore Eph. 2:8-9. YES we are saved by the grace THROUGH FAITH! Not of works.

I understand that Baptists always stress or emphasis on Ephesians 2:8-9, that we are saved by faith only. But, they seem not actually understand the word -'faith' what it means.

I better stop now. I think this post is already long. So, I better make another post to continue on James 2.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Let me ask you - a child is born but it is not breathing and it has no heartbeat. Is it alive? No. There is a person - but no life.

In the same way, someone can claim faith but if there is no fruit - no "new creation" - no living in Christ, then it is not true faith. Faith without works is dead. It is not a saving faith but a dead faith. But it is not the works that save - but is the sign that there is life in Christ. Just as breathing and a heartbeat show life, so does works.

 

[annsni]

Ann,

Care explain what the definition of 'faith', what it means? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Read Hebrews 11

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ann,

Common things that I read and heard from Baptists who believe in OSAS, say that these who are dead faith, because they are not saved in the first place. And you say, their faith is dead, because they no fruit in Christ. You are partially correct.

Let look in John chapter 15 talks about fruits. Christ is the vine, His Father is a farmer. We are branches, Before we accept Christ, we were dead. When after we received Christ, then Christ begins to produce us, as we bringing the fruits, which speaking of our faith and work. Before we accept Christ, we were without Him and no hope, and dead, because He was not abide in us. When after accepted Christ, then He abides in us, as we abide in him same time. Verse 6-7 tell us, if anyone who do not continue or remain in Christ, then person is being cut off FROM the vine, and cast dead branch away in the fire. Christ expects us that we should bring fruits forth to growing in Christ faithfully. Or, other wise, if we stop bring fruits forth, then our faith would be dead afterward, at the end we would be cast away into the fire. Christ commands us that we ought to endure in Christ faithfully all the way till our death(physical) or He comes, then shall be saved- Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13. Or otherwise what if we stop endure in the midst of our life, and continue in sinning afterward to the end, then we shall not be saved, and we might be end up in lake of fire.

When we have spirit, fruits, are in Christ, therefore, we MUST walk in them throughout our life. If we do not walk in them afterward, then we would be cast away in fire - John 15:6; Romans 11:19-23.

Bible teaching us very clear that being bring fruits are conditional, keep in faith is conditional, being endure in Christ is conditional. If we fail them all, then we shall not be saved at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ann,


You tell me to read Hebrews 11. Ok, telling me, how did the O.T. saints were ended in heaven with the Lord, what their results were? Just one time event of put faith in Christ-saved onced? Or, just only one time event of believed in Christ- saved onced, that's it? Do you actual understand what the whole Hebrews chapter 11 talks about? Faith is not a one time event. Faith is a whole lifetime with obedience and action while believe in the Lord same time. Chapter 11 recorded what happened to them, what they has done in their faith by through their obedience and action.

Noah is a very good point of example on faith. When God called Noah, to built the Ark, because he was going to destroy the world with flood. Noah listened and believed God's saying. Noah did obeyed Him, he builts the Ark with obedience and having faith in the Lord same time. What if suppose, during in the middle of the period, Noah decides to quit stop built the Ark, and turn back to world again. What would happen to Noah and his family? They would have already perish in the flood and we would not being exist, and the no hope, and no gospel!!!

See? My point on faith. Faith always included with believing, trusting, obedience, and action, all go together same time while carry fruits in the lifetime. If we do not do these things, then we would not be saved at the end, will be end up in the everlasting fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Jkdbuck76]

I grew up in the Church of Christ.

But became a Southern Baptist.

What do you want to know?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JKDBuck76: I grew up in the Church of Christ.

But became a Southern Baptist.

What do you want to know?

HP: When did you get saved?

PS: and did you have to get re-baptized?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

HP: When did you get saved?

PS: and did you have to get re-baptized?

I was saved at the age of 12. I can tell you that I felt some "Holy Spirit" conviction and I knew from the preaching of God's Word that I was a hell-doomed center. I asked Christ into my life. I came forward at an invitation at a youth group meeting we had at my friend's house! I made a public profession of faith and was baptized that evening. This was all at a Church of Christ.

When I converted to The One True Religiontm(aka I became a southern baptist) they required that I be baptized Scripturally (ie, your past denomination believes in baptismal regeneration and we do not).

At first, I had some problems, but my eagerness to become a member and to get invloved in the ministry of the church won out. My wife and I were baptized on the same day. She for the first time and I for the second time.

 

[annsni]

Ann,

Common things that I read and heard from Baptists who believe in OSAS, say that these who are dead faith, because they are not saved in the first place. And you say, their faith is dead, because they no fruit in Christ. You are partially correct.

Let look in John chapter 15 talks about fruits. Christ is the vine, His Father is a farmer. We are branches, Before we accept Christ, we were dead. When after we received Christ, then Christ begins to produce us, as we bringing the fruits, which speaking of our faith and work. Before we accept Christ, we were without Him and no hope, and dead, because He was not abide in us. When after accepted Christ, then He abides in us, as we abide in him same time. Verse 6-7 tell us, if anyone who do not continue or remain in Christ, then person is being cut off FROM the vine, and cast dead branch away in the fire. Christ expects us that we should bring fruits forth to growing in Christ faithfully. Or, other wise, if we stop bring fruits forth, then our faith would be dead afterward, at the end we would be cast away into the fire. Christ commands us that we ought to endure in Christ faithfully all the way till our death(physical) or He comes, then shall be saved- Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13. Or otherwise what if we stop endure in the midst of our life, and continue in sinning afterward to the end, then we shall not be saved, and we might be end up in lake of fire.

When we have spirit, fruits, are in Christ, therefore, we MUST walk in them throughout our life. If we do not walk in them afterward, then we would be cast away in fire - John 15:6; Romans 11:19-23.

Bible teaching us very clear that being bring fruits are conditional, keep in faith is conditional, being endure in Christ is conditional. If we fail them all, then we shall not be saved at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Romans 11 speaks of this and gives us more light on who Jesus was addressing in this passage:

16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The branches cut off in John 15 are the unsaved Jews.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ann said:

'The branches cut off in John 15 are the unsaved Jews'

Ok, I know what you mean. Because the audits in John 15, were all Jews, there were no Gentile audit. Therefore, the reason you saying it.

Of course, this topic, as what Christ spoken is clearly aply to the Jews. Even, Christ was also speak toward his disciples. Disciples were followers of Christ.

You mentioned of John chapter 15, these as branches who are cut off are unsaved. Rember before we get arrive John chapter 15. During that Lord's supper in the night just few hours before Christ got arrested, prepared for to be crucified, the next day. Christ gave a long lecture or sermon TO HIS DISCIPLES in the upper room just right the Lord supper. Christ continued his sermon from John chapter 14 thru chapter 17. Obivously, from chapter 14 to chapter 17 apply to his followers which are Christians, therefore, it also apply to us well.

So, therefore, John chapter 15 is very cleay apply to us as Christians.

I believe Apotle Paul wrote Romans chapter 11, because he was taught by Jesus Christ through revelation in the desert (Galatians 1:12,17-18). No doubt, I believe Romans 11 is same with John chapter 15 which speaking of tree same as vine.

Paul told us of Romans chapter 11, God removed Jews from the tree, because of their unbelief, He grafted Gentiles into tree join with believing Jews became one.

Earlier I did show you of Romans 11:19-23. This passage tells us that, Jews were moved away from the tree, because of unbelief. But, not only Jews. Also, please look verse 20 says, "Well; because of unbelief they(Jews) were broken off; and thou(Gentiles & Jews) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR."

Paul told us, that we do not being boast that we are on the tree (feel good being already saved), but be humble with fear before the Lord. Why should we fear of the Lord? Because in Matthew 10:28 tells us, we better fear of the Lord, because He have power to cast our body and soul in hell. Do play or mock at God.

Also, please look Romans 11:22 says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF."

This verse tells us that, we ought to continue in Christ, or, otherwise, we would be cut off. 'Continue' is same as 'abide'.

Romans 11:19-23 is very, very clear speak of conditional with warning on salvation. This is not always apply to Jews only, also, included Gentiles too. This passage is clear apply to us as Christians.

By the way, Romans chapter 11 say nothing anything about future restoration phyiscal nation of Israel again. This chapter talking about salvation in Christ. Christ is the tree. If you are in Christ, you are saved. But, if you do not continue in Christ, then, you would be cut off from the tree same with John 15:6.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[steaver]

DeafPost;

Paul told us of Romans chapter 11, God removed Jews from the tree, because of their unbelief, He grafted Gentiles into tree join with believing Jews became one.

Earlier I did show you of Romans 11:19-23. This passage tells us that, Jews were moved away from the tree, because of unbelief. But, not only Jews. Also, please look verse 20 says, "Well; because of unbelief they(Jews) were broken off; and thou(Gentiles & Jews) standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR."

Paul told us, that we do not being boast that we are on the tree (feel good being already saved), but be humble with fear before the Lord. Why should we fear of the Lord? Because in Matthew 10:28 tells us, we better fear of the Lord, because He have power to cast our body and soul in hell. Do play or mock at God.

Also, please look Romans 11:22 says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF."

This verse tells us that, we ought to continue in Christ, or, otherwise, we would be cut off. 'Continue' is same as 'abide'.

Romans 11:19-23 is very, very clear speak of conditional with warning on salvation. This is not always apply to Jews only, also, included Gentiles too. This passage is clear apply to us as Christians.

This entire chapter is about "belief". In fact, Paul makes it perfectly clear that works have no part in one's salvational place in Christ....

Rom 11:6And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Paul makes it clear that you are a branch through belief, not by works. Therefore one's fruit or works must be a result of belief. This makes fruits and works a product of belief, because one is IN Christ, rather than any doctrine of maintaining works as a necessity for salvation.

What then are you left with here in Romans 11? You are left with grace through faith alone being the mark of salvation. So the only question left is can one stop believing in that which they have absolute personal knowledge of is true?

I know Jesus Christ. How can I stop believing He is God?