Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Dachaser1: The NT has NO verses supporting that a christian saved by grace of God can undo/lose His eternal life!

HP: I do not now where you have been, but numerous passages have been set forth on this forum by many individuals that clearly warn us of the possibility of making shipwreck of ones faith.

The truth is that it is NOT that there are no such Scriptures, but rather there are none that your presupposition of OSAS will allow you to accept.:thumbs:

 

[DaChaser1]

HP: I do not now where you have been, but numerous passages have been set forht on this forum by many individuals that clearly warn us of the possibility of making shipwreck of ones faith.

The truth is that it is NOT that there are no such Scriptures, but rather there are none that your presupposition of OSAS will allow you to accept.:thumbs:

well, we know that hebrews 6 does NOT refer to losing salvation, nor does falling from grace, nor shipwreaking ones faith...

So what else is left?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What is left is for God to open your eyes to the truth.:thumbs:

 

[glfredrick]

I didn't mean to suggest that I knew personally people who believe this, but I was saying that it logically could lead someone to think they were saved and would remain so, regardless of their words or actions.

For instance, if someone turned away in whatever manner or for whatever reason, if they had held to OSAS, wouldn't they think they could continue in that state and yet be saved?

That's an interesting backpeddle... You seem to inject this issue into almost every conversation that you have and yet when called on it you don't really know anyone who personally believes it. Hmmmm....

We get to use logic -- that is a God-given capability -- and we are instructed to use our minds in the process of seeking, knowing, and loving God. But, we cannot carry "logic" beyond specific revelation, which is what you are attempting to do and why it isn't working for you.

As there are likely no people who are actually Christian who do what you suggest, why bother with the exercise in speculation? Either that, or produce them, but know before hand, if you find them, they will be heretical.

The whole counsel of the Word of God is against sin. That holds for those whom are saved eternally as well as for those who might only be religiously affected. No one that I can see is exempt, even Christ (who in fact did live a perfectly sinless life!). So, to use this issue as a logical tenet to attempt to defeat OSAS is rather useless on the face of things. In other words, a red herring argument that only wastes time and effort.

 

[steaver]

HP: We have some on this board, including one preacher, that testifies to sinning everyday in thought word and deed. So, I can say I know someone, on this board, that admits he sins daily and yet sin has no effect on his salvation. That is simply stating, 'I remain saved regardless of my actions or words.' If that is not a license to sin, nothing is. If that is not pure antinomianism, what else could it be?

How often do you talk about other people in a negative way HP? I could count hundreds of times you have lied on this board and called people names. You lie every time you call someone a Calvinist when they tell you they are not. You lie when you say someone said something they have not, when you add your own twist on what was said. If you adhere to your own theology that sinning will void your salvation then your testimony here on this board would necesitate you losing your own salvation just about everyday.

Here is the scripture you sin against everyday HP....

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. "

What? Why would we receive condemnation if it is not sin?

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body."

What? Many things we offend all! Unless you are the exception HP and you are that perfect man James speaks of.

"But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

What? No man? Well maybe you HP have done it!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: What? No man? Well maybe you HP have done it!

HP: I have to love you Steaver. :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

HP: I have to love you Steaver. :thumbs:

:laugh: I like it! :wavey:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That's an interesting backpeddle... You seem to inject this issue into almost every conversation that you have and yet when called on it you don't really know anyone who personally believes it. Hmmmm....

We get to use logic -- that is a God-given capability -- and we are instructed to use our minds in the process of seeking, knowing, and loving God. But, we cannot carry "logic" beyond specific revelation, which is what you are attempting to do and why it isn't working for you.

As there are likely no people who are actually Christian who do what you suggest, why bother with the exercise in speculation? Either that, or produce them, but know before hand, if you find them, they will be heretical.

The whole counsel of the Word of God is against sin. That holds for those whom are saved eternally as well as for those who might only be religiously affected. No one that I can see is exempt, even Christ (who in fact did live a perfectly sinless life!). So, to use this issue as a logical tenet to attempt to defeat OSAS is rather useless on the face of things. In other words, a red herring argument that only wastes time and effort.

Well, I allowed myself to get lulled into believing I could have a serious and honest discussion with you. My mistake -- I'll try not to let that happen again.

 

[glfredrick]

Well, I allowed myself to get lulled into believing I could have a serious and honest discussion with you. My mistake -- I'll try not to let that happen again.

So, you get caught in a conundrum of your own making and all of a sudden it is my fault? I just pointed out what you did...

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So, you get caught in a conundrum of your own making and all of a sudden it is my fault? I just pointed out what you did...

I was addressing a very specific situation. You didn't see it that way, apparently.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: I do not now where you have been, but numerous passages have been set forth on this forum by many individuals that clearly warn us of the possibility of making shipwreck of ones faith.

The truth is that it is NOT that there are no such Scriptures, but rather there are none that your presupposition of OSAS will allow you to accept.:thumbs:

What you really mean, is that many proof texts have been set forth that have been jerked out of context to teach the false idea of apostasy of true believers.

Each has been fully answered, set back in context and OSAS has been defended successfully.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist deserves nothing but condemnation from the moderators of this board when he posts such remarks. [/COLOR]

It is impossible to have a correct view of the gospel or salvation and embrace living above sin - impossible!

Now, a person may embrace that heresy after being truly saved and that does not affect his personal salvation but his mind has been deceived.

First, he has no clue about the Biblical definition of sin.

Second, he has no clue about the doctrine of justification

Third, he has no clue about the gospel as "good news" about Jesus Christ.

To say as you have, that simply because Paul believed in a daily struggle with an inward sin nature, and because no child of God conquers sin completely any time this side of glorfication, that such believe in a liscence to sin is to intentionally pervert Paul's position and those who agree with him. The true child of God sins every day MORE THAN HE WANTS TO.

When you deny the reality of indwelling sin you are sinning and don't even realize it - you are contradicting and opposing the Word of God and that is sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael, if one were asking you how to seek salvation, would you tell him it is a growth process? Just the same we all know that we grow once saved. If one seeks the Lord for anything, is it possible to exercise faith in any other manner than at a specific point in time? Faith incorporates an act of the will, and that happens in an instant much like the formation of a motive.

Why should asking the Lord to purify ones heart in such a manner as to walk a holy and pleasing walk before Him be any different? If one suggest that one cannot live holy before God in all the light and knowledge they have in this present world, is it not impossible for the mind to strive to achieve that which it perceives as a natural impossibility?

So many talk the talk of forsaking sin in one breath only to show us they love their sin by continuing day after day exercising their will in accordance to sin, boldly proclaiming that it is imperative that they continue in their sin and even impossible to live without it. Would not such a position be described as one of "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof?"

Scripture never represents death as a sanctifier, it is the last enemy. Scripture never once indicates that a state of sanctification should be sought after but impossible to achieve in this present world. If we are to walk as Christ walked, and we are to be 'preserved blameless' as Scripture indicates we should be, that is going to have to happen here and now, not simply being achieved in a process that never culminates until the world to come.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

That is not just some 'positional' righteousness. It has its affect directly on our physical bodies and present state of mind.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That to me describes clearly a state of sanctification, a consistent daily holy walk before God in this present world, being a reasonable requirement by all that take the name of Christ. Will such a state be achieved by simply our own determination over time, or by faith and trust in God to perform that which He promises to perform in our lives if we seek Him with our whole heart, in this present world?

 

[The Biblicist]

Michael, if one were asking you how to seek salvation, would you tell him it is a growth process?

Salvation is spoken of in THREE TENSES not one. There is a past tense "saved" aspect of salvation. There is a present ongoing continuous aspect of salvation "save" and there is a future aspect yet unrealied "shall be saved." This corresponds roughly to three theological aspects of salvation. Regeneration/conversion - past tense completed action. Sanctification - present tense incompleted action. Glorification - future tense completed action.

Hence, a person seeking salvation, I would tell him how he must be "saved" through coming to Christ by faith. After he received Christ by faith, I would tell him that he now has a new nature that is a completed CREATIVE work of God the holy Spirit within him in connection with the indwelling Spirit of God in him and that He has been given all that is necessary to now present tense continuous action live a holy (set apart) life for God. I would then tell him that Jesus is coming back one day and his salvation will be perfected in the glorification of his body when indwelling sin and its corruption will then be removed.

Just the same we all know that we grow once saved.

Here you admit to a past tense "saved" condition that PRECEDES growth.

If one seeks the Lord for anything, is it possible to exercise faith in any other manner than at a specific point in time?

Initial salvation is through faith embracing the finished work of Jesus Christ for eternal life revealed in the gospel. Here faith merely RECEIVES!

After initial conversion it is by faith we DO good works (Eph. 2:10). That is, the Word of God provides directions about how "saved" persons should live. The first direction is not to attempt to live for Christ in your own strength which is to "walk after the flesh" but to yeild to the Holy Spirit by faith to live for God - "As ye have RECEIVED the Lord Jesus Christ SO WALK YE IN HIM."

Hence, our walk is an EMPOWERED walk by the Spirit of God or else we are walking AFTER THE FLESH and in for sure defeat and failure (Rom. 7:18).

However, this simple fundemental of progressive sanctification is rejected and repudiated by you and your lack of understanding the a,b,c's of scripture.

Faith incorporates an act of the will, and that happens in an instant much like the formation of a motive.

Wrong! The intents and thoughts can have two different distinct sources within a child of God. There is a wisdom that cometh from beneath and one that cometh from above (James 3). James three is addressed unto and characterises Christians just as James 5:1-5 does (adultresses and adulterers).

The wisdom that cometh from beneath originates from the fleshly nature and ultimately from below or indwelling sin within a Christian. The wisdom that cometh from above originates from God through the new created inward man and Holy Spirit in a Christian. One must SET THEIR AFFECTIONS ON THINGS ABOVE (Eph. 5:1) or their affections will be set on things beneath. This is a rational choice. Hence, one either walks in the Spirit or walks after the flesh depending upon which source is being followed and applied in your life.

If intents and thoughts are derived from lower wisdom then sin will always be the character of such intents and thoughts and resultant actions.

If intents and thoughts are derived from the new creature then the will must choose between self-empowerment which leads to defeat or by faith yeild to the Holy Spirit for empowerment. Here is where the will and faith connect within a child of God. Either a child of God wills to Walk as he received - by faith - or he chooses to walk in the power of his own might.

So many talk the talk of forsaking sin in one breath only to show us they love their sin by continuing day after day exercising their will in accordance to sin, boldly proclaiming that it is imperative that they continue in their sin and even impossible to live without it. Would not such a position be described as one of "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof?"

Again, you are blatantly perverting our position. The true position is that the child of God sins MORE THAN HE WANTS TO. He does sin and the Bible says only liars deny this (1 Jn. 1:8-10). In Romans 7:15-22 the child of God chooses to do "good" but the only time of failure is when the child of God depends of self will "power" (Rom. 7:18b) instead of power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:11-13). The willingness to do good is present but how to perform the willingnes to do good is not found in self. Why? "For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO" as a combination effectually in "good works."

It is hardly fair to characterize our position "love" for sin when the very text we use shows that the child of God who sins is experiencing a "WRETCHED" condition rather than a "LOVE" condition for sin.

Scripture never represents death as a sanctifier, it is the last enemy.

False! To "mortify" means to "put to death" and that is exactly how the "deeds" of the flesh must be dealt with in a child of God by the power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:13). We have "died" to sin in the body of Christ representatively and positionally through justification and thus "freed" (Rom. 6:7 - same greek word translated "justified") positionally. By faith we are called upon to "reckon" ourselves experientially and practically "dead" to sin by YIELDING to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God to "mortify the deeds of the flesh." Paul said "I die DAILY" (I Cor. 15:31).

Scripture never once indicates that a state of sanctification should be sought after but impossible to achieve in this present world.

No, but it does YOUR VIEW of sanctification (Philip 3:10-12; 1 Jn. 1:8-10).

If we are to walk as Christ walked, and we are to be 'preserved blameless' as Scripture indicates we should be, that is going to have to happen here and now, not simply being achieved in a process that never culminates until the world to come.

"Be ye therefore Perfect EVEN AS your father in Heaven is Perfect" is the only goal suitable as a goal but that does not mean anyone has attained does it! Should we pray that others be preserved 51%??? 60%? 70%??

You obviously believe we can be presently GLORIFIED according to your view of sanctification. Glorification is being PRESENTED BLAMELESS before God and if that is what it means to be PRESENTED BLAMELESS before God then that is what it must mean BY YOUR DEFINTION of being "preserved blamless" until the day of Christ????????

Your position is irrational and based upon pure eisgesis of scripture.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, if one were asking you how to seek salvation, would you tell him it is a growth process? Just the same we all know that we grow once saved. If one seeks the Lord for anything, is it possible to exercise faith in any other manner than at a specific point in time? Faith incorporates an act of the will, and that happens in an instant much like the formation of a motive.

Why should asking the Lord to purify ones heart in such a manner as to walk a holy and pleasing walk before Him be any different? If one suggest that one cannot live holy before God in all the light and knowledge they have in this present world, is it not impossible for the mind to strive to achieve that which it perceives as a natural impossibility?

So many talk the talk of forsaking sin in one breath only to show us they love their sin by continuing day after day exercising their will in accordance to sin, boldly proclaiming that it is imperative that they continue in their sin and even impossible to live without it. Would not such a position be described as one of "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof?"

Scripture never represents death as a sanctifier, it is the last enemy. Scripture never once indicates that a state of sanctification should be sought after but impossible to achieve in this present world. If we are to walk as Christ walked, and we are to be 'preserved blameless' as Scripture indicates we should be, that is going to have to happen here and now, not simply being achieved in a process that never culminates until the world to come.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

That is not just some 'positional' righteousness. It has its affect directly on our physical bodies and present state of mind.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That to me describes clearly a state of sanctification, a consistent daily holy walk before God in this present world, being a reasonable requirement by all that take the name of Christ. Will such a state be achieved by simply our own determination over time, or by faith and trust in God to perform that which He promises to perform in our lives if we seek Him with our whole heart, in this present world?

Thank you for you very detailed post.

I must say that I agree with what The Biblicist posted below yours, minus the insults. I don't believe we can be "entirely sanctified" while in this earthly existence. I have read some of Wesleyan views of entire sanctification which assert that this restores those who have received it to a pre-Adamic state spiritually. But I don't believe that, because we do not have pre-Adamic bodies.

I also do not believe an instantaneous second work of grace. Actually, there are and should be innumerable works of grace, including pre-salvific: prevenient grace, saving grace, sanctifying grace, and many other kinds, instances, acts, and nuances of grace. Sanctifying grace begins simultaneous with justification and regeneration which also may have a growth process -- it did with me, since I was raised in a Christian home by godly parents and cannot recall a time I did not believe. Even the Wesleyans believe that sanctification begins with justification and regeneration. My disagreement with them is that sanctification is not completed, or entire, until we are free from this body of corruption. We may indeed have distinct stages in our progress of sanctification and growth, but I cannot agree that we can be entirely sanctified in this life -- even if sanctification is defined as love, as Dr. Thomas Oord does in his book Relational Holiness. This is an excellent book, but I don't think it successfully defends entire sanctification -- sanctification, yes; entire sanctification as attainable in this life, no.
That's about as succinctly as I can put it; I hope it adequately explains my position on this subject.

 

[glfredrick]

You will find that Wesley adopted a second work of grace AFTER he met a particular Moravian missonary that led him to true faith (versus religious zeal) in Christ. Wrongly believing that he was already saved, he had to figure out how he was now changed, when in fact what he was before this encounter was religious in a very human sense (though doubtlessly sincere) and what he was after the encounter was "born-again-from-above" and in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit.

That MORE would come into contact with those who would lead them to TRUE faith -- born-again-from-above faith -- instead of mere religious zeal and very human attempts to please and serve God.

As one who has been in both conditions, I can testify with Wesley the difference that comes when GOD does the saving.

Now, let me go and re-sing Amazing Grace: (All GOD! No me!)

Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That sav'd a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev'd;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believ'd!

Thro' many dangers, toils, and snares,
I have already come;
'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis'd good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call'd me here below,
Will be forever mine.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

A wonderfu song, yes indeed.:godisgood:

By the way, who mentioned Wesley in this discussion? I simply posted Scriptures and gave my comments on them.

Who mentioned Wesley? I simply posted Scripture and gave my own comments on them. Do you think Wesley was the first one to receive or teach a deeper infilling of the Spirit subsequent to salvation?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

A wonderfu song, yes indeed.:godisgood:

By the way, who mentioned Wesley in this discussion? I simply posted Scriptures and gave my comments on them.

Well, to be fair, that would be me.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You will find that Wesley adopted a second work of grace AFTER he met a particular Moravian missonary that led him to true faith (versus religious zeal) in Christ. Wrongly believing that he was already saved, he had to figure out how he was now changed, when in fact what he was before this encounter was religious in a very human sense (though doubtlessly sincere) and what he was after the encounter was "born-again-from-above" and in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit.

That MORE would come into contact with those who would lead them to TRUE faith -- born-again-from-above faith -- instead of mere religious zeal and very human attempts to please and serve God.

As one who has been in both conditions, I can testify with Wesley the difference that comes when GOD does the saving.

Now, let me go and re-sing Amazing Grace: (All GOD! No me!)

Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That sav'd a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev'd;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believ'd!

Thro' many dangers, toils, and snares,
I have already come;
'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis'd good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call'd me here below,
Will be forever mine.

I believe you may well be right about Wesley -- that he had a head knowledge but not a heart knowledge before he met that Moravian.

Amazing that I can agree with you occasionally while disagreeing with you so strongly at other times. Must be something wrong with one of us.

 

[glfredrick]

A wonderfu song, yes indeed.:godisgood:

By the way, who mentioned Wesley in this discussion? I simply posted Scriptures and gave my comments on them.

I did, as he is a great example and also the one who started the whole notion of a second blessing.