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Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers)

NetChaplain

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One disadvantage in studying Scripture is the unknowingly over-paralleling the dispensations of God’s administrations concerning God’s people, Israel and God’s children, the Christians. Though much teaching within the prior Covenant typified and “shadowed” the coming “very image” (Heb 10:1), there is a point at which proper understanding between the prior and the present Everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20) can breach into misunderstanding concerning the designed intentions contained within the truths of each!

Among the many Biblical subjects that seem to be a bit unclear for immediate understanding, the issue concerning the translation or “change” of the Church (1Co 15:51, 52; 1Th 4:13-18) is surly not least among them. Of this subject, only the chronology of its occurrence concerning “that day and hour” is unrevealed (Mat 24:36). Though for the learned and discerning, there appears to be the possibility of approximating its season (Mat 24:32, 33). But knowing when of its transpiration is secondary to knowing of its “blessing,” which is towards “he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it” (Rev 1:3).

While an unbeliever can only await the grave, believers can await the rapture, or translation! Whichever of the two believers choose to await can significantly determine the quality of their walk. Be it dread or joy, one thing is for certain, the majority of the world can only await the prior; and for those of this company whose lives will tarry, there first “shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Mat 24:21).
NC




Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers)


Not only is the Church a product of this specific age with no relation whatever to any other age, but each believer is perfectly accepted now and forever before God on the ground of his position in Christ, and, being saved out of this world, he is no more of this world than Christ is of this world (Jhn 15:18, 19; 17:14, 16).

The coming tribulation (not even remotely related to Acts 14:22, noting the words “coming tribulation”—NC) is the judgement of this world. Israel has her part in it since, being not yet saved (Rom 11:26), she is of the world. The believer, being what he is in Christ, has no more a rightful place in this world’s judgements than Christ Himself or any unfallen angel. Back of the theories that the Church (Body of Christ) will enter or pass through the tribulation is the Arminian heresy that the believer contributes something to his own acceptance before God, and, having failed to some extent is this responsibility, he will be purged by the suffering which the tribulation affords.

There is a line of truth which concerns the believer’s personal faithfulness; but this is consummated before Christ at His judgment seat in heaven. As for any condemnation, or other judgment, the Christian is wholly delivered forever on the most righteous ground that a Substitute bore the condemnation and judgment and has provided a perfect standing before God. It is established by Scripture that the believer is delivered from all condemning judgments (John 3:18; 5:24; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 33, 34; 1 Cor 11:31, 32).

In general, those who contend that the Church will experience the tribulation assert that all believers—spiritual and unspiritual (carnal babes-in-Christ - 1Co 3:1, unlearned but not “carnally minded” because that is “death” Rom 8:6—NC) will enter that period of suffering, though there are those believing in a partial rapture who assert that the Church will be divided and the spiritual element, which always includes those who advance this notion, will go directly to heaven, while the unspiritual will suffer for their sins in the tribulation.

This constitutes a Protestant purgatory. The answer to all such conceptions is the recognition of the truth that, when members of this sinful race go to heaven, it is not on the ground of their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. It is to be remembered that each believer is already perfectly justified forever (Rom 5:1; 8:30, 33, 34; Heb 10:14), and this wholly within the range of divine justice (Rom 3:26). Thus the contention that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation becomes and insult to, and unbelief towards (though ignorantly—NC) the measureless grace of God in His Beloved Son.

Those who entertain the idea that the Church experiences the great tribulation must reckon with the fact that of upwards of seventy-five generations (2,250 years, given a generation is about 30 years—NC) who comprise that company, all but the present generation have entered Glory without the supposed benefits of that purging experience. Why, then, should the last generation suffer that from which the vast host have been spared?

On this point a specious argument has been advanced, namely, that as the Church has suffered martyrdom in certain periods of her history she may be expected to suffer thus again at the end of her age; but back of this claim is the failure to recognize that past sufferings were due to the attack of wicked men upon the Church, while the great tribulation is God’s judgment upon wicked men. Wholly justified believers have no place among evil men who are destined to eternal doom.


- L S Chafer (1871-1952)
 

robycop3

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I believe the true Church will be translated (raptured) before the great trib hits, so as to remove most opposition to the "mark of the beast", which will be some sorta microchip or electronic tech.
 

NetChaplain

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I believe the true Church will be translated (raptured) before the great trib hits, so as to remove most opposition to the "mark of the beast", which will be some sorta microchip or electronic tech.
Amen, and appreciate your input! God bless!
 

JoeT

Member
Amen, and appreciate your input! God bless!
Ruptured or Rapture?

John Darby had theological beliefs of multiple 2nd comings of Christ based on predictions of Margaret MacDonald, a 14-year old, in a levitation séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot)Theories in this vein require for 2 to 5 returns of Christ, that’s in addition to His last stay some 2,000 years ago. The Bible only people cannot make these theories work based on sacred scripture. As such they become the dreaded doctrine of men. There are pre-tribers, post-tribers, anti-tribers, premillenialsits, amillenialists, millenialist, postmillennialists, and dispensationalist, you name it and the doomsayers are coming out of the wood work. If the Bible is to “interpret itself,” how then do we discern this theory is “self-evident”. And why are these evident truths all different and never fulfilled; which are the God's infallible Truth? Most Catholic's find rapture's main theme, to avoid tribulations, a bit odd. Christ tells us in Matthew 16: 24-25; “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.” Don’t forget that we merit indulgences in our suffering for Christ.

A teeth grinding Dorothy like faith requiring only one click of the heels of faith and Christ comes and goes, comes and goes, ad infinitum. Recently reformers have turned over God's revelations to man eating heathens only to have this phony rapture thing miss yet another dinner date.

St. Augustine held a philosophy of a personal tribulation:

In the day of tribulation I have sought out God Psalm 76:2. Who are you that doest this thing? In the day of your tribulation take heed what you seek out. If a jail be the cause of tribulation, you seek to get forth from jail: if fever be the cause of tribulation, you seek health: if hunger be the cause of tribulation, you seek fullness: if losses be the cause of tribulation, you seek gain: if expatriation be the cause of tribulation, you seek the home of your flesh. And why should I name all things, or when could I name all things? Do you wish to be one leaping over? In the day of your tribulation seek out God: not through God some other thing, but out of tribulation God, that to this end God may take away tribulation, that you may without anxiety cleave unto God. In the day of my tribulation, I have sought out God: not any other thing, but God I have sought out. And how have you sought out? With my hands in the night before Him.... St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 77 (CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition on Psalm 77 (Augustine))​

St. Clement (?-215) and St. Origen (185-232) had similar views as St. Augustine who also stated:

If I walk in the midst of tribulation, You shall revive me [Psalm 137:7]. True it is: whatsoever tribulation you are in, confess, call on Him; He frees you, He revives you....Love the other life, and you shall see that this life is tribulation… St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 138 (CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition on Psalm 138 (Augustine))​

St. Augustine outright rejects the 1,000 years, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view as "materialists" and "millenarians". He goes on to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20. (Cf. Augustine, City of God, bk 20, chapter 7).

We should ask, when will the 2nd coming of Christ be? No one knows! (Matt 24:36) However, we do know that it will be on the “last day” (John 6:25, 39; John 12:48; John 11:24). Not a multiple number of last days but on THE last last day. Scriptures don’t say the last day before the last day or the last period before the last day. Scripture says Christ return will be on “THE LAST DAY.”

The Tim LaHay fabricated rupture has Christ do touch-and-go landings on earth’s runway, right after the end of verse 16 and just before 17 in the First Thessalonians 4. The verse calls for both the dead in Christ to rise and the living in Christ to rise. However, In John 6 Christ discusses what it takes for the dead in Christ to be raised (not the living). Christ specifically states in John 6:55 and John 6:35 that this will occur on the last day. Consequently, there is no room in the time line for a touch and go of a second 'Second Coming' of Christ – not even on the second to last day.

Let’s look at what it takes to be raised. First we hear Christ’s words; “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don’t catch up with Christ until after the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom.

Maybe I want to be left behind. It’s the meek that inherit the earth, they are the ones 'left behind'.

The second coming is to be like in the days of Noah, nobody will know when it occurs and they will be making marry up till the last day. And in Noah’s day who was taken up? Those making marry until “the flood came and took them all away.” (Matt 24:39). The bad guys were taken up; Noah was left on a boat. This is a real contradiction for LaHay who wants to send up the good guys in lieu of those God judged as wicked men eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage(Cf. Gen 6:5) ?

This hasn't stopped the wondrous unconstrained thinkers of great reform and Mayan renown from predicting failed pre-trib rapture. Let's look at a few of their successes, if you can call it a success.

1844 - William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. Miller's theology gave rise to the Advent movement and more predictions, oops

1977 - William M. Branham predicted that the Rapture would take place in 1977. Oops another miss.

1981 - Chuck Smith undogmatically predicted that Jesus would likely return by 1981. Oops now what - fear not yet another rupture.

1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant. Oops, oh well. But we’re getting closer to the last day.

1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for

1992, 1995, and other years. Oops2

1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture. Ooopsie daisy.

1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions. Oops.

1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio. Oops.

1994 Evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994 and May 2011. Opps.

2011 Evangelist Harold Camping predicted May 2011

2012 The reform/Mayan calendar ends the world and th th th that's not all folks. Ma'taali'teeni' , Oops

So, which is it rupture or rapture? Wouldn't you think such a profound theological doctrine would produce better results than these? Now these are only the ones that interested me. But, as we have here we have tons of individual dispensations.

The protest of some against the Church, His Kingdom, the New Israel, is sometimes so intense it fails to recognize the second coming of Christ starts at the incarnation as His Body, the Body of Christ, the Church is built up with living stones. So, we can say, we are with Christ in the Kingdom until He returns in His Person on the Last Day.

The kingdom of heaven was inaugurated on earth by Christ. "This kingdom shone out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ" (LG 5). The Church is the seed and beginning of this kingdom. Its keys are entrusted to Peter. CCC 567

JoeT
 
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NetChaplain

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The kingdom of heaven was inaugurated on earth by Christ. "This kingdom shone out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ" (LG 5). The Church is the seed and beginning of this kingdom. Its keys are entrusted to Peter. CCC 567

JoeT
Hi, and though I appreciate your quite involved reply, I usually do not debate the book of Revelation because the opinions among many, esp. the community of Bible commentators vary between three different time frames: preterist, historicist and futurist.

Myself, I find Revelation more of an encouragement-intended teaching than a spiritual growth teaching.

Blessings!
 
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