Church Worship singing and music

[JonC]

The first Baptists sang only Psalms, but they put them to metre so that the congregations could sing them.

This (the history of our musical worship) is an interesting history.

Initially worship music was joyous, emotional and energetic. This type of music lacked the harmony our music uses as a structure (the music was monophonic and unharmonized).
Our worship music became solemn (what we hear as "sacred") in the Midfle Ages through the Catholic Church. And it was not until the 9th century that harmony began to appear in Western music.

But our early humns were psalms or passages. When what we consider to be traditional hymns began to appear it met a lot of resistance.

Puritians rejected the use of hymns. Instead they sung psalms. The rationale was worship should only be the psalms as written in Scripture and hymns were man-made rather than God delivered.

Several Presbyterian sects condemed the use of hymns, as did John Calvin. They viewed hymns as a rejection of God in favor of human invention.


That theology (that view in regard to worship music) gave way to the use of hymns.

Today we see traditional hymns giving way to Contemporary Worship Music. In a way, CWM is a return towards the past (many dong lyrics are more biblical and less subjective than our traditional hymns). But the accompanying music shares hymn's use of harmony, but with a different style.


These changes have taken place as long as Christianity has spread outside of its beginning environment.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

It is interesting that you turn to the Old Testament when it suits you, but reject the Old Testament when it comes to music.


I agree, though, with the passage. We must worship "in spirit and truth" and use the gifts God has provided us for God. Those who God gives the gift to play the guitar should do so in worship as a member of a congregation.

God has told people to worship Him using musical instruments. God never told people not to use musical instruments.

Those are two facts you cannot deny.


Choose a church that uses instruments - regardless of style. How many will say "let's stand and sing "The Old Rugged Cross" with musical instruments"?. None. They will say "Let's sing...". The accompanying music is assumed by the culture.

If l use the Old Testament to suit me how does Christ when he adds a new commandment?
John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I’m not using anything, l’m observing what is and what was and if you can’t see that that’s your problem.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

The verses are not, but the verses di not prescribe a specific type of music.

Yes, we all kniw that singing psalms typically included using instruments. We are not stupid. We can read.

My point is you are excluding instruments being used based on your preferences (you are playing God).

Where in the NT are instruments prohibited? Nowhere. Where in the NT is singing psalms indicated to be unaccompanied by instruments? Nowhere.

We can assume that small stringed instruments, perhaps drums, were used in small settings to accompany singing because that was the custom and it was not prohibited. We can also assume they sung hymns unaccompanied.



By your idea of sacred music being based on the Catholic Church what I sm saying is the solomn style you think is the only way to praise God was developed by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.

Until the Middle Ages the songs were more emotional, more joyous and lively than your music preference. The songs were sung without harmony and in a manner that expressed the lyrics.

The tone (here I mean style, energy, atmosphere) of the music in the Bible was closer to Contemporary Praise Music than old hymns. Your preferred style is closer to Roman Catholic music than the music used in the Bible.

But both styles were very different in that our music uses harmony for structure and the music in the Bible did not.


Unless you can find a NT passage authorizing the addition of harmony to worship music you are a hypocrite. And since harmony was not used until centuries later and not in the music of that area you cannot find such passages. But I will ask anyway.

What passage in the NT allows for the introduction of harmony to worship music?

If you want to live in the Old Testament do it.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

This is not a right understanding of the importance of the book of Psalms for NT Christians. The Psalms were not just for believers in Israel, etc. The NT uses the book of Psalms more than any other book of the Bible. The NT itself therefore teaches us that what God revealed in the Psalms is foundational for NT Christianity.

The NT is not Judaism and lm not a Jew

 

[JonC]

If l use the Old Testament to suit me how does Christ when he adds a new commandment?
John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I’m not using anything, l’m observing what is and what was and if you can’t see that that’s your problem.

What I mean is ypu quote the Old Testament in an attempt to support your assumptions but when other people quote the Old Testament you say that dies not spply because it is the Old Testsmemt.

In the Old Testament God said to worship Him with drums, cymbals, stringed instruments and horns.

The New Testament does not mention the kinds of instruments used. We know the Apostles worshipped with loud music on the Sabbath at the Temple "as was their custom", but the worship of early churches is not described.

You assumed the music was solemn. It was not (it was emotional, joyous and energetic). Solemn music in Christianity would come centuries later as the music of the Roman religion (the public religion....some mystery cults would use chaotic music) blended with Christianity (when Christianity was made into the official religion of the Empire).


If the music of the New Testsment is the standard we should follow none of our music would meet that standard. BUT Contemporary Worship Music is closer to the music of the New Testament than are our old hymns.

 

[JonC]

If you want to live in the Old Testament do it.

Your post is idiotic. I do not live in the Old Testament.

You said that God does not approve of the type of music He told Israrl to use in the Old Testament. I am saying your ideas are asinine, foreign to God's Word, and ultimately anti-Christ.


New Testament worship was not solemn. It was emotional, energetic, and joyous (so was OT music).

Christian worship music became solemn as a result if Christianity blending with Roman paganism (the Catholic Church as a political and official religion....the public worship style of the Roman religion (acknowledging all of the "gods") was solemn.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

Your post is idiotic. I do not live in the Old Testament.

You said that God does not approve of the type of music He told Israrl to use in the Old Testament. I am saying your ideas are asinine, foreign to God's Word, and ultimately anti-Christ.


New Testament worship was not solemn. It was emotional, energetic, and joyous (so was OT music).

Christian worship music became solemn as a result if Christianity blending with Roman paganism (the Catholic Church as a political and official religion....the public worship style of the Roman religion (acknowledging all of the "gods") was solemn.

Your type of worship music is OT

 

[Its_real_for me !]

What I mean is ypu quote the Old Testament in an attempt to support your assumptions but when other people quote the Old Testament you say that dies not spply because it is the Old Testsmemt.

In the Old Testament God said to worship Him with drums, cymbals, stringed instruments and horns.

The New Testament does not mention the kinds of instruments used. We know the Apostles worshipped with loud music on the Sabbath at the Temple "as was their custom", but the worship of early churches is not described.

You assumed the music was solemn. It was not (it was emotional, joyous and energetic). Solemn music in Christianity would come centuries later as the music of the Roman religion (the public religion....some mystery cults would use chaotic music) blended with Christianity (when Christianity was made into the official religion of the Empire).


If the music of the New Testsment is the standard we should follow none of our music would meet that standard. BUT Contemporary Worship Music is closer to the music of the New Testament than are our old hymns.

I thought l had an excessive easterly wind down our service road…

 

[JonC]

I thought l had an excessive easterly wind down our service road…

Lol....If you live north of DC ypu probably did.

I am not saying we should adopt the type of music used in the New Testament. I doubt if we did that we could worship in spirit in truth (it would just be trying to mimic the style of music ised in the Bible).

In reading the Old Testament it is fairly obvious that God did not prescribe a new form of music but instead He told them to use what was already in ANE culture (to use it completely, to the best of their ability, to praise Him).

Like @Aaron 's little drummer boy playing his best to worship God.


I am just noting the fact that Contemporary praise music has more in common with the music used in the Bible while our traditional hymns have more in common with Roman Catholic music.

Neither style is wrong because God does not prescribe a musical style. The type of music used should by a type authentic to the worshipper.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

I am just noting the fact that Contemporary praise music has more in common with the music used in the Bible while our traditional hymns have more in common with Roman Catholic music.

that's your opinion, unfortunately. Your music is distracting. At this point if you can't see why the Pauline epistles don't detail like the OT cannon, that's on you.

One last ditch effort for the theologian

Ephesians 5:19 SPEAKING ( not singing, can l get a witness ? ) to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING ( no music mentioned here) and making melody in your heart to the Lord

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING ( just singing, not including music style with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The scripture is clear, and if you stop and think about it, God doesn't need to go into detail about something so easy to comprehend to his Believing children.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The NT is not Judaism and lm not a Jew

The book of Psalms is not just about or only for the OT people of God. The book of Psalms reveals that God has commanded the whole world to worship Him with singing and musical instruments--those commands were not Judaism, and they were not just for Jews.

The book of Psalms also reveals divine commands to the whole universe to praise Him, which obviously is not Judaism or only for Jews.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

The book of Psalms is not just about or only the OT people of God. The book of Psalms reveals that God has commanded the whole world to worship Him with singing and musical instruments--those commands were not Judaism, and they were not just for Jews.

The book of Psalms also reveals divine commands to the whole universe to praise Him, which obviously is not Judaism or only for Jews.

that’s not my argument. And it seems like you too need to understand what's being relayed in the verses I posted, if you're able.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

that’s not my argument

Here is what you said in your OP:

Gotta accept the fact that we are living in the New Testament not the old . You wanna follow the Old Canon in the psalms , that's on you !

The only verses mentioned is singing ( or music ) in church services is...

Ephesians 5:19 "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord"

Colossians 3:16, "teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom through psalms ( meaning a song but doesn't mean how it was performed in the OT) and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING ( no mention of the type of music and instruments) to God with gratitude in your hearts"

Hebrews 12:2, "I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises"

James 5:13 "Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise"

and I wouldn't doubt at one time just acapella was done due to these verses not talking about instruments.

You speak about "living in the New Testament not the old" and "the Old Canon in the psalms." My point is that limiting your understanding of what NT Christians should do in the churches to only what is mentioned in the NT is faulty theology because the NT repeatedly shows us that the Psalms have direct application to NT Christians.

 

[JonC]

that's your opinion, unfortunately. Your music is distracting. At this point if you can't see why the Pauline epistles don't detail like the OT cannon, that's on you.

One last ditch effort for the theologian

Ephesians 5:19 SPEAKING ( not singing, can l get a witness ? ) to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING ( no music mentioned here) and making melody in your heart to the Lord

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING ( just singing, not including music style with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The scripture is clear, and if you stop and think about it, God doesn't need to go into detail about something so easy to comprehend to his Believing children.

No, that is fact.

Contemporary Praise lyrics are closer to the psalms you despise, very much like Psalm 136 - the psalm you found "ridiculous", "repetitious and draining".

Contemporary Praise does employ repetition of the main theological point (just like the psalms). It is less about communicating the specific doctrine than hymns, but so ate the psalms.

The musical elements of Contemporary Praise songs are more like the musical elements of the songs used in the Bible. They are joyous, emotional and energetic.

Your preference (what you think all worship music should be) originates with the Roman Catholic Church, not the Bible. It makes use of the pagan public Roman worship music.

Roman used solemn in public worship music because Romans viewed sacred sound as a precise, legalistic technology meant to maintain pax deorum (the peace of the gods) without emotion.

Your preferred music find its roots not in the Bible but in paganism, handed down to you through the Roman Catholic Church.

It is through the Roman Catholic Church that Christian worship music became solemn. Rome made Christianity its official religion, and the result was a mixture of Christianity and paganism.


I am not saying solemn music is wrong. It was the music of public worship in pagan Rome (it was their culture, the Romans were accustomed to music maintaining pax deorum and this mindset was carried into the Catholic Church.


You are also wrong to suggest the New Testament commands singing WITHOUT instruments. The singing would have been in accordance with their culture (instruments when reasonable and avaliable, unaccompanied when necessary).

In the New Testament one vould expect unaccompanied songs and the use of household musical instruments like small frame drums (tof) and basic flutes or pipes (halil).


At church today we sang praise songs and old hymns. We used instruments. BUT the invitation was to sing, not sing and use instruments. We would not talk thst way. Scripture would not either.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

what you both are missing is external, ie; ceremonial, verses internal from the heart and don't think for a minute that everyone you know playing and singing along with instruments is totally focusing on it, priest slaughtering animals for repentance that the people relied on wasn't from the heart. Maybe some did but, NT believers give and take do and don't. Gods way of saying it is finished, was it. I know you think the type of worship music you all support isn't ceremonial but it whether you want to admit it isn't. That's the whole point Paul was making, btw by the inspiration of the holy spirit, that is NOT open for private interpretation. God changed to non ceremonial..... like JonC mentioned old hyms are more geared for Catholics, I would say a powerful organ that's mundane verse a modern piano can't be compared. I wouldn't mind cappela.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

what you both are missing is external, ie; ceremonial, verses internal from the heart and don't think for a minute that everyone you know playing and singing along with instruments is totally focusing on it, priest slaughtering animals for repentance that the people relied on wasn't from the heart. Maybe some did but, NT believers give and take do and don't. Gods way of saying it is finished, was it. I know you think the type of worship music you all support isn't ceremonial but it whether you want to admit it isn't. That's the whole point Paul was making, btw by the inspiration of the holy spirit, that is NOT open for private interpretation. God changed to non ceremonial..... like JonC mentioned old hyms are more geared for Catholics, I would say a powerful organ that's mundane verse a modern piano can't be compared. I wouldn't mind cappela.

A lot of what you say here is merely your opinion. God has always wanted worship from the heart. He condemned the OT believers when their worship was not from the heart.

There are many instances in Scripture of God's accepting the worship of OT saints that included singing accompanied by musical instruments, which shows that their worship on those occasions was not merely external, ceremonial worship that was not from the heart.

Singing a cappella does not ensure that people will sing with their hearts, and the use of musical instruments in worship in churches does not automatically prove that their worship is insincere worship that is not from the heart.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

A lot of what you say here is merely your opinion. God has always wanted worship from the heart. He condemned the OT believers when their worship was not from the heart.

There are many instances in Scripture of God's accepting the worship of OT saints that included singing accompanied by musical instruments, which shows that their worship on those occasions was not merely external, ceremonial worship that was not from the heart.

Singing a cappella does not ensure that people will sing with their hearts, and the use of musical instruments in worship in churches does not automatically prove that their worship is insincere worship that is not from the heart.

If it’s not ceremonial then why was ceremonial things done away with? Think about that.

And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

He was rejecting sacrifices which were ceremonial. Christ ended the temple access only by levitcal priests only…

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

So ya see, you folk are caught up in what’s considered ceremonial.

It’s one thing if it’s listened to in your car or the house stereo, but not in a church sanctuary.