churches do not own Jesus and salvation!

[nodak]

I'm recuperating from an ear infection/lung infection. That means I have to take a med that leaves me with runny watery eyes, so I've spent a lot of the morning reading all sorts of denominational and church websites.

I won't name the offenders, but I have gotten the idea some folks think:

unless they baptise you, as opposed to someone else doing the job, you won't make heaven

unless you dress up/dress down/ for church you are lost

only tithers need apply for heaven, even if it means taking food out of a starving child's mouth

unless you like hymns/ccm/rock gospel/country gospel/mountain music, or some other specific type, you are lost

if you have to work on Sundays, or miss midweek service or Sunday evening service, you are lost

In short, just about every human opinion on how things should be done is held to be necessary for salvation.

Somebody better tell some of my neighbors! We don't have some of those denominations! And some of my neighbors do have to work on Sundays, have less income than they need to barely feed/clothe/shelter their families, make their own music, teach their own kids about Jesus, and just generally are strong Christians without the input of those specific churches.

Some are churchgoers, some are not.

But we serve a mighty God who calls us to a personal relationship with Him....not to membership in a church.

Kind of a good reminder for this church going church loving old lady.

 

[FlyForFun]

That "personal relationship with him" requires participation in His Body on earth -- the church.

 

[steaver]

That "personal relationship with him" requires participation in His Body on earth -- the church.

Is this another "requirement" for salvation?

BY grace are ye saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves.

:jesus:

 

[Johnv]

churches do not own Jesus and salvation!

No one on this board would every say anything remotely like that. All on this board agree that Jesus saves, and him alone.

 

[nodak]

The very fact you have a personal relationship with Him makes you a member of the Church.

Whether or not you are a member of a local body does not impinge on your salvation.

I've known real life cowboys who lived so far out in the boonies the organized church was impossible for them.

I've known folks who lived where "the church" was what we on BB would call a cult or apostate. Don't believe they lost their salvation for not having a church to attend, nor do I believe they should have attended a cult meeting.

I know people right now who for health reasons, poverty reasons, language barriers, and honestly with what they find in their local churches who worship with their families at home. Doesn't mean they lost their salvation.

I'm not advocating against church attendance--go generally at least once a week myself, teach Sunday School, am part of the musicians on occasion, work VBS, and am part of soul winning and outreach. (Last part is a little slow right now--haven't had the privilege of midwifing a born again new birth since mid May).

I come from a Landmark background for years while in the SBC.

It has done me a heap of good to realize that while human organizations are wonderful for getting out the gospel and for discipling, we humans CANNOT decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't.

It has appalled me to realize lots of folks seem to honestly believe that if you do not do everything the way they think it must be done, thereby ending your chance of membership in their local body or denomination, you cannot possibly be saved.

I do believe a saved person will hunger to be part of a church. But I also am seeing that there are times when for a season there isn't a healthy church for them to be a part of.

Still saved? YOU BET!

 

[FlyForFun]

Is this another "requirement" for salvation?

BY grace are ye saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves.

:jesus:

No kidding. But we "work out our salvation" in a variety of ways that bear fruit.

Are you suggesting one can be "saved" and never participate in any church?

 

[Alive in Christ]

FlyForFun,

You said...

"That "personal relationship with him" requires participation in His Body on earth -- the church.

No it doesnt. Not in the least. We are saved (justified forever in Gods sight) by embracing Jesus Christ by faith alone.

Born again people should find a place to gather and worship with a body of believers. It is Gods will that we all do that, if possible. But its not at all a requirement for salvation.

"Are you suggesting one can be "saved" and never participate in any church?

Absolutely. We are not saved by "Church". We are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

 

[FlyForFun]

FlyForFun,

You said...



No it doesnt. Not in the least. We are saved (justified forever in Gods sight) by embracing Jesus Christ by faith alone.

Born again people should find a place to gather and worship with a body of believers. It is Gods will that we all do that, if possible. But its not at all a requirement for salvation..

Did I say we were "saved" by the church?

No.

When we are saved, we bear fruit -- this is evidence of our salvation to ourselves and to others.

You're intentionally muddling "salvation" and "sanctification."

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm recuperating from an ear infection/lung infection. That means I have to take a med that leaves me with runny watery eyes, so I've spent a lot of the morning reading all sorts of denominational and church websites.

I won't name the offenders, but I have gotten the idea some folks think:

unless they baptise you, as opposed to someone else doing the job, you won't make heaven

unless you dress up/dress down/ for church you are lost

only tithers need apply for heaven, even if it means taking food out of a starving child's mouth

unless you like hymns/ccm/rock gospel/country gospel/mountain music, or some other specific type, you are lost

if you have to work on Sundays, or miss midweek service or Sunday evening service, you are lost

In short, just about every human opinion on how things should be done is held to be necessary for salvation.

Somebody better tell some of my neighbors! We don't have some of those denominations! And some of my neighbors do have to work on Sundays, have less income than they need to barely feed/clothe/shelter their families, make their own music, teach their own kids about Jesus, and just generally are strong Christians without the input of those specific churches.

Some are churchgoers, some are not.

But we serve a mighty God who calls us to a personal relationship with Him....not to membership in a church.

Kind of a good reminder for this church going church loving old lady.

I see a lot of stupid threads on "theology" and stay out of them for the most part as a result. But this one rises above them all thus far.

1. The title fails to relate to the op
2. You accused churches of holding to trivial issues as a requirement for salvation but failed to provide any evidence or examples
3. You seem to excuse not going to church which is grevious

I would suggest you rethink your op and reword it in a coherent manner.

 

[Darron Steele]

Hi Nodak: this thread goes to show just how much so many people like arguments.

Before this post, there were only 8 posts after your opening post -- and already, we have people
a) looking for things to criticize, and if necessary, making stuff up,
b) trying to start arguments.

I read your post, and I know what you were trying to say and what you were not trying to say. You posted something very gracious. I cannot believe anyone would insult you so rudely for it.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hi Nodak: this thread goes to show just how much so many people like arguments.

Before this post, there were only 8 posts after your opening post -- and already, we have people
a) looking for things to criticize, and if necessary, making stuff up,
b) trying to start arguments.

This is a debate forum. If you don't like that then stay in the fellowship forums. Otherwise your own words fulfill your own complaint.

 

[Aaron]

churches do not own Jesus and salvation!

. . . but they are owned by Jesus, and are the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[FlyForFun]

[/B]. . . but they are owned by Jesus, and are the pillar and ground of the truth.

Exactly right.

 

[Darron Steele]

This is a debate forum. If you don't like that then stay in the fellowship forums. Otherwise your own words fulfill your own complaint.

Oh, I am aware that this is a debate forum. I have no problem with that.

I thought it was interesting far some people have gone to find something to argue about. As I said, within just 8 posts, a few posters were
a) looking for things to criticize, and if necessary, making stuff up,
b) trying to start arguments.
I thought it says a lot about a big problem we have in the church.

I was troubled that when there was nothing obvious to argue about, one of you insulted the poster for even posting the opening post. Never mind that she has said she is getting over an illness, and never mind that she said she is elderly. Never mind that we can ignore threads that do not interest us.

You and a few other posters have to have something to argue about. It looks like your attitude was `How dare she post something where an argument is not obvious,' and in retaliation, you insulted her:

I see a lot of stupid threads on "theology" and stay out of them for the most part as a result. But this one rises above them all thus far.

1. The title fails to relate to the op
2. You accused churches of holding to trivial issues as a requirement for salvation but failed to provide any evidence or examples
3. You seem to excuse not going to church which is grevious

I would suggest you rethink your op and reword it in a coherent manner.

I will give you something to argue with:

• 1 Timothy 5:1 "Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers,
  1Ti 5:2a older women as mothers," (ESV).

• 2 Timothy 2:24a "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel! He must be kind to everyone" (ICB).

• 1 Timothy 6:4 warns against "an unhealthy craving for controversy" (ESV) or "a morbid interest" (NASB) in such.

She `dared' to post something here that did not `offer' you something definite to argue about -- `How dare she.' Next time someone posts a thread that does not interest you because nothing arguable easily presents itself, try ignoring it -- rather than insult an elderly lady getting over an illness, or insult anyone for that matter.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh, I am aware that this is a debate forum. I have no problem with that.

I thought it was interesting far some people have gone to find something to argue about. As I said, within just 8 posts, a few posters were
a) looking for things to criticize, and if necessary, making stuff up,
b) trying to start arguments.
I thought it says a lot about a big problem we have in the church.

I was troubled that when there was nothing obvious to argue about, one of you insulted the poster for even posting the opening post. Never mind that she has said she is getting over an illness, and never mind that she said she is elderly. Never mind that we can ignore threads that do not interest us.

You and a few other posters have to have something to argue about. It looks like your attitude was `How dare she post something where an argument is not obvious,' and in retaliation, you insulted her:I will give you something to argue with:

• 1 Timothy 5:1 "Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers,
  1Ti 5:2a older women as mothers," (ESV).

• 2 Timothy 2:24a "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel! He must be kind to everyone" (ICB).

• 1 Timothy 6:4 warns against "an unhealthy craving for controversy" (ESV) or "a morbid interest" (NASB) in such.

She `dared' to post something here that did not `offer' you something definite to argue about -- `How dare she.' Next time someone posts a thread that does not interest you because nothing arguable easily presents itself, try ignoring it -- rather than insult an elderly lady getting over an illness, or insult anyone for that matter.

Don't read into my motives you don't know what your doing. It is a rare occasion that anyone knows how old someone is even if that were a valid argument here, Showing up here and falsely bashing churches based on absolutely nothing and presenting no information to coincide with the title is childish. Feigning indignation does not impress me. And if you do not want opposing views stay our of the debate area. Finally I insulted no one I addressed the inane info in the op.

 

[Johnv]

unless they baptise you, as opposed to someone else doing the job, you won't make heaven

Wnoever told you this is wrong. First of all, baptising someone doesn't save them. Second, most mainline Christian churches recognize "alien" baptim, that is, baptism performed by churches of another Cristian fellowship or denomination.

unless you dress up/dress down/ for church you are lost

Never heard that anywhere from any churh. Anyone who espouses it is wrong.

only tithers need apply for heaven, even if it means taking food out of a starving child's mouth

Tithing/giving is scripturally required, but anyone who claims it's a requisite for salvation is wrong. I've never heard a church say it is.

unless you like hymns/ccm/rock gospel/country gospel/mountain music, or some other specific type, you are lost

That would be wrong. There have been namy debates about music styles, but never one about salvation based on one's music style.

if you have to work on Sundays, or miss midweek service or Sunday evening service, you are lost

Never heard that either.

In short, just about every human opinion on how things should be done is held to be necessary for salvation.

Never heard that either.

Frankly, I question your sincerity. I've examined a lot of different churches, and never heard any of the claims you noted above. I suspect you've fabricared the OP for the debating's sake.

 

[nodak]

Rev Mitchell:

I did not state which websites basically stated that unless you belonged to their little group (or big group) you were unsaved because those folks are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I will and do speak the truth to them face to face, but the point was not to bash them, just speak of an attitude problem many of us Christians face.

Thank you for being a shining example of that attitude: hubris.

I'll try to be a little more succinct for you this time.

It is interesting and edifying to come to this forum and learn what people believe, and to learn the scriptural basis they may have for those beliefs. The same holds true for visiting other sites. You can learn some good stuff.

But it is good to be reminded once in a while that we cannot put Jesus in our own little box and dispense Him as we see fit.

My intent was to simply praise God for being bigger than any of our theologies or rituals or formulas.

My apologies for posting in the wrong forum. Obviously I lack your superior knowledge and intellect, and it must be difficult for you to tolerate having to deal with that.

To those who answered graciously, my apologies for posting in the wrong place and thank you for your Christian spirit.

 

[Darron Steele]

Rev Mitchell:

I did not state which websites basically stated that unless you belonged to their little group (or big group) you were unsaved because those folks are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I will and do speak the truth to them face to face, but the point was not to bash them, just speak of an attitude problem many of us Christians face.

Thank you for being a shining example of that attitude: hubris.

I'll try to be a little more succinct for you this time.

It is interesting and edifying to come to this forum and learn what people believe, and to learn the scriptural basis they may have for those beliefs. The same holds true for visiting other sites. You can learn some good stuff.

But it is good to be reminded once in a while that we cannot put Jesus in our own little box and dispense Him as we see fit.

My intent was to simply praise God for being bigger than any of our theologies or rituals or formulas.

My apologies for posting in the wrong forum. Obviously I lack your superior knowledge and intellect, and it must be difficult for you to tolerate having to deal with that.

To those who answered graciously, my apologies for posting in the wrong place and thank you for your Christian spirit.

You did not post in the wrong forum.

Revmitchell was just disappointed that this thread did not have what he was looking for: something readily available to argue about.

If you had posted this in the Fellowship area, I think the subject would have been out of place. You owe no one an apology.

Further, what you posted was gracious and involved praise of the Lord. The Christian quality of graciousness is never out of place anywhere, and I dare say that there is nowhere on this board where praising the Lord is genuinely out of place.

This was a good place to put this thread. You are exactly right in what you said, too.