T
TexasSky
Guest
Okay - Christ said to give unto Ceasar that which was Ceasar's and to God that which was God's.
What IS God's?
What IS God's?
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Civil tithing debate
- Thread starter Soulman
- Start date
Soulman:
Tithing is not exactly just man-made. God instituted the command of tithing, but, as I understand it for the nation of Israel, which was by and large, agricultural.
Man, however, continues to preach it as part and parcel of New Testament principles when it no longer is part of God's economy in the New Testament.
However, adding tithes to offerings does raise some bit of money, especially if you're on a foreign mission field.
Which is why I have broke off any association or identification with some of my people who have gone on 'missions' to the Philippines.
They teach that tithing is one of the non-essentials and should not be a test of fellowship, BUT, they do not teach tithing here in their churches in the States.
I think that is corrupt, and dishonest.
Tithing is not exactly just man-made. God instituted the command of tithing, but, as I understand it for the nation of Israel, which was by and large, agricultural.
Man, however, continues to preach it as part and parcel of New Testament principles when it no longer is part of God's economy in the New Testament.
However, adding tithes to offerings does raise some bit of money, especially if you're on a foreign mission field.
Which is why I have broke off any association or identification with some of my people who have gone on 'missions' to the Philippines.
They teach that tithing is one of the non-essentials and should not be a test of fellowship, BUT, they do not teach tithing here in their churches in the States.
I think that is corrupt, and dishonest.
I don't care who argues it and how often. I'm going to continue to tithe. That is, I'm going to continue to give 10% of my income. Whenever possible, I will give more. I do so out of respect and gratitude for the Lord. If someone wants to accuse me of legalism, or any other kind of ism, they're welcome to. But I'm not going to stop tithing. I'll tithe until I die. If I'm wrong in doing so, I'm not any worse off for it.
Johnv, you are not a legalist for consistently giving 10% of your income to your church. I applaud you on this. It is legalistic to tell people that they are required to do such, for the sole reason that it cannot be supported by reasoned study of the Scriptures, which is what legalism is.
Pinobaptist, no one is saying that "tithing" is entirely man-made. The true tithe of the Bible clearly defined in many places throughout is, of course, God-made.
Pinobaptist, no one is saying that "tithing" is entirely man-made. The true tithe of the Bible clearly defined in many places throughout is, of course, God-made.
This is what we mean by church "tithing" being man-made.
Quoted by pinoybaptist: Tithing is not exactly just man-made. God instituted the command of tithing, but, as I understand it for the nation of Israel, which was by and large, agricultural.
Yes. God did institute the tithe. The way it is practised in churches today is man made.
Posted by Johnv: I don't care who argues it and how often. I'm going to continue to tithe. That is, I'm going to continue to give 10% of my income.
John, I am not trying to get you to contribute 1 cent less than you are giving. If you have read my posts at all you would see that I am all for giving and giving generously. I am just saying that it isn't a tithe. Tithing 10% of your income was never done. It is giving. That is all I am trying to say.
Why the big deal then???
It's a big deal due to the fact that preachers beat their flocks over the head with it. Instead of giving liberally as you do and receive the blessing, many are coerced into tithing and it is burdensome. That is why the tithe is dangerous. It is abused and mis-used. As practised today it is unbiblical, irrelevant and abusive.
Yes. God did institute the tithe. The way it is practised in churches today is man made.
Posted by Johnv: I don't care who argues it and how often. I'm going to continue to tithe. That is, I'm going to continue to give 10% of my income.
John, I am not trying to get you to contribute 1 cent less than you are giving. If you have read my posts at all you would see that I am all for giving and giving generously. I am just saying that it isn't a tithe. Tithing 10% of your income was never done. It is giving. That is all I am trying to say.
Why the big deal then???
It's a big deal due to the fact that preachers beat their flocks over the head with it. Instead of giving liberally as you do and receive the blessing, many are coerced into tithing and it is burdensome. That is why the tithe is dangerous. It is abused and mis-used. As practised today it is unbiblical, irrelevant and abusive.
10% sounds good to me. When we consider the goodness of God and all the blessings that He has bestowed on us, it seems that we should give Him more than just 10% of our income. Giving should be out of a thankful heart. 10% is the ideal and any less is not ideal. We should give at least 10%. If we get stingy with God, He might get stingy with us.
Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek(Gen. 14:18-20) and this was before the law or Moses, so God doesn't mind a church encouraging members to tithe to further His kingdom.
Yes, there are some that abuse the tithe and try to scare people into giving, but to say that everyone who tithes is wrong is absurd. Unless, you can judge the motives of a person's heart and there isn't a human who can. I would hate to think of what would happen at my church if people quit tithing. The ministry would crumble. People should give by faith, believing that God will bless their faithfulness. Just because some people don't want to give God 10% doesn't mean that we all have to quit doing it. I don't consider tithing to be a ritual of the law that I partake in. It is an opportunity to show God we love and trust Him.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:17
Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek(Gen. 14:18-20) and this was before the law or Moses, so God doesn't mind a church encouraging members to tithe to further His kingdom.
Yes, there are some that abuse the tithe and try to scare people into giving, but to say that everyone who tithes is wrong is absurd. Unless, you can judge the motives of a person's heart and there isn't a human who can. I would hate to think of what would happen at my church if people quit tithing. The ministry would crumble. People should give by faith, believing that God will bless their faithfulness. Just because some people don't want to give God 10% doesn't mean that we all have to quit doing it. I don't consider tithing to be a ritual of the law that I partake in. It is an opportunity to show God we love and trust Him.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:17
Although I would still argue that the "tithing" here is misunderstood, I would agree that encouraging a consistent giving scheme is a good idea. Commanding it is not Scriptural.
Once again, I never say that everyone who "tithes" is wrong. It is a good thing to give 10% or any amount cheefully. What I am always saying is that it is wrong to say that Christians are required to give 10% of their incomes to a local church for the simple reason that it cannot be Scripturally supported. To doctrinally command anything that is not Scripture is legalism.
If the motive is indeed obedience to a supposed command, then yes, it could crumble. If it is actually cheerful giving, then there is no problem here.
I guess this is good. I believe people should give to God cheerfully having no expectations receiving anything back. You could trust that God will meet all your needs, but you shouldn't expect that God will return to you the value (in money or otherwise) every cent that you give.
This is true. And true of any method whereby we give cheerfully.
Quote: "Giving should be out of a thankful heart. 10% is the ideal and any less is not ideal. We should give at least 10%. If we get stingy with God, He might get stingy with us."
I don't beleive it is the ideal. I think we should give more if possible. 10% seems to be a good place to start. That is my opinion as giving 10% is yours. It aint in the bible for N.T. saints.
Quote: "Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek(Gen. 14:18-20) and this was before the law or Moses, so God doesn't mind a church encouraging members to tithe to further His kingdom."
Abraham returned from a battle and tithed to Melchizedek on the spoils of war. He then gave the rest to the king. He kept nothing for himself. He didn't tithe on his own substance that we know of. Nor is there any record that he ever did it again.
God DOES mind churches giving a tithe. The motives are good but that is NOT what God has set up for the N.T.
Quote: "but to say that everyone who tithes is wrong is absurd."
No it is not absurd. What is absurd is that people don't want to give God's way. They insist on calling it a tithe.
THE TITHE DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BIBLE FOR THE N.T. CHURCH!!
Giving 10% or more is wonderful but don't call it a tithe. Tithing in the N.T. is a scam invented by the R.C.C. to control the finances of the religion.
Quote: I would hate to think of what would happen at my church if people quit tithing. The ministry would crumble.
Look at your very next sentance.
quote: People should give by faith, believing that God will bless their faithfulness.
Which is it? Tithing is not an act of faith as many believe it to be. It is an obligation. A must do no matter what.
Giving IS an act of faith. That is how God set it up.
Tithing in churches is unbiblical. It is that simple. Once again I have seen nothing more than opinions in the defense of tithing. That is because it cannot be biblically defended. It is kinda hard to defend biblical church tithing when it isn't in the bible to defend in the first place.
I don't beleive it is the ideal. I think we should give more if possible. 10% seems to be a good place to start. That is my opinion as giving 10% is yours. It aint in the bible for N.T. saints.
Quote: "Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek(Gen. 14:18-20) and this was before the law or Moses, so God doesn't mind a church encouraging members to tithe to further His kingdom."
Abraham returned from a battle and tithed to Melchizedek on the spoils of war. He then gave the rest to the king. He kept nothing for himself. He didn't tithe on his own substance that we know of. Nor is there any record that he ever did it again.
God DOES mind churches giving a tithe. The motives are good but that is NOT what God has set up for the N.T.
Quote: "but to say that everyone who tithes is wrong is absurd."
No it is not absurd. What is absurd is that people don't want to give God's way. They insist on calling it a tithe.
THE TITHE DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BIBLE FOR THE N.T. CHURCH!!
Giving 10% or more is wonderful but don't call it a tithe. Tithing in the N.T. is a scam invented by the R.C.C. to control the finances of the religion.
Quote: I would hate to think of what would happen at my church if people quit tithing. The ministry would crumble.
Look at your very next sentance.
quote: People should give by faith, believing that God will bless their faithfulness.
Which is it? Tithing is not an act of faith as many believe it to be. It is an obligation. A must do no matter what.
Giving IS an act of faith. That is how God set it up.
Tithing in churches is unbiblical. It is that simple. Once again I have seen nothing more than opinions in the defense of tithing. That is because it cannot be biblically defended. It is kinda hard to defend biblical church tithing when it isn't in the bible to defend in the first place.
******Tithing in churches is unbiblical. It is that simple. Once again I have seen nothing more than opinions in the defense of tithing. That is because it cannot be biblically defended. It is kinda hard to defend biblical church tithing when it isn't in the bible to defend in the first place. **********
If the members in my church want to tithe, that is between them and the Lord. We also practise missions offerings, so most of our members are giving a lot more than 10%. I believe that 10% is a good place to start also. As far as defending the tithe goes, I don't have to. We try to govern our church by being obedient to God. If we feel like He wants us to give at least 10%, then we will. If you and your local church feel like God doesn't want you to mention 10% then do it. To say that tithing in churches is unbiblical, is a little overboard because no where does Christ say not to do it. It's all about the motives.
If the members in my church want to tithe, that is between them and the Lord. We also practise missions offerings, so most of our members are giving a lot more than 10%. I believe that 10% is a good place to start also. As far as defending the tithe goes, I don't have to. We try to govern our church by being obedient to God. If we feel like He wants us to give at least 10%, then we will. If you and your local church feel like God doesn't want you to mention 10% then do it. To say that tithing in churches is unbiblical, is a little overboard because no where does Christ say not to do it. It's all about the motives.
RockRambler
New Member
You may want to be careful in using that statement to back up your argument. Nowhere does Christ speak against homosexuals either...or a number of other issues.
Quoted by cojosh: If the members in my church want to tithe, that is between them and the Lord.
If it is between them and the Lord, why do they do it? The Lord has set out in the scriptures how people should give. He has stated His position on the subject.
Sounds like alot of christians have not learned to trust God. They seem satisfied to follow the teachings of men just because it sounds right.
Remember: God's ways are not our ways!
If it is between them and the Lord, why do they do it? The Lord has set out in the scriptures how people should give. He has stated His position on the subject.
Sounds like alot of christians have not learned to trust God. They seem satisfied to follow the teachings of men just because it sounds right.
Remember: God's ways are not our ways!
Check out: http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=161
I havent read the whole article but it looked pretty good.
I havent read the whole article but it looked pretty good.
what about when Christ said that the Pharisees give tithe of all that they have.....and that this was a good thing? Didn't He also say that that was something they SHOULD have been doing?
I know that is not the main point of the passage there, but I believe it is still a valid contextual understanding of Jesus' view on a tithe.
I know that is not the main point of the passage there, but I believe it is still a valid contextual understanding of Jesus' view on a tithe.
Brother Ian
Active Member
One thing everyone is missing is that tithing predated the Law by about 400 years. Genesis 14 records the account of Abram and Melchizedek.
I agree that the tithe was typically given of the flock or the heard or the grain. Today we don't generally deal in those commodities so we tithe the commodity we do have...money. I know in Romania, some still bring a tithe of the field. I have a friend that pastored in a small town in Louisiana where the people brought food they had grown as their tithe.
We should tithe. The reason most people don't tithe is because they waste their money on other things and they convince themselves they cannot afford to tithe. There are, of course, exceptions, but in my financial dealings with people (I teach a class on finances at my church), they don't tithe because they don't want to.
Statistics of professing Christians that do not tithe are staggering. Another thing is that people believe they are tithing if they give regularly. This is not true. The very nature of the tithe is 10%. As was mentioned above, under the Law, Jews were required to give up to about 23% of their income.
Tithing is not a financial matter, but a spiritual matter.
I agree that the tithe was typically given of the flock or the heard or the grain. Today we don't generally deal in those commodities so we tithe the commodity we do have...money. I know in Romania, some still bring a tithe of the field. I have a friend that pastored in a small town in Louisiana where the people brought food they had grown as their tithe.
We should tithe. The reason most people don't tithe is because they waste their money on other things and they convince themselves they cannot afford to tithe. There are, of course, exceptions, but in my financial dealings with people (I teach a class on finances at my church), they don't tithe because they don't want to.
Statistics of professing Christians that do not tithe are staggering. Another thing is that people believe they are tithing if they give regularly. This is not true. The very nature of the tithe is 10%. As was mentioned above, under the Law, Jews were required to give up to about 23% of their income.
Tithing is not a financial matter, but a spiritual matter.
I don't think we've been missing this. We have discussed this. Nevertheless, I will present it again. Here is the passage:
A few things can be learned from this passage:
1. Melchizedek was a priest of the most high God. Tithing was only received by priests.
2. Abram tithed of what he obtained through battle with Chedorlaomer. He did not tithe of his own wealth.
3. Abram refused to keep the remaining 90%. He gave the rest to the king of Sodom.
4. Abram was not commanded to tithe. He did it voluntarily.
5. There is no record of Abram doing any other tithing.
The tithe (of the Mosaic Law) was always of the increase of the harvest year by year. It was yearly because it was used for yearly activities. From what can be gathered in Deuteronomy 14, the first and second years it was for what I would call a "fiest of tithes." The household ate and shared their own tithe.
The third year, it was for what I would call a "heap tithe" where the tithe was laid outside the gates for public benefit. The third year was called the "year of tithing" (Deut. 26:12).
So, the reason we should tithe is based on your logic:
1. Tithing was never based on money (except for travel convenience), only on yearly agricultural increase, but we can assume that the reason was that the Israelites used a barter system while we today use currency. Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
2. Many people who don't give 10% of their paychecks to a local church are poor stewards of their money. This proves that we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
3. There is a record that Abram gave 10% of something to Melchizedek. There is also a record that Jacob promised God that he would give Him tithes if God fulfilled His promises of a great nation. Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
4. The Israelites gave yearly tithes of produce to Levites who used them in their work in the tabernacle and the temple. We can assume that the church is the new temple and the bishops are the new Levites. Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
5. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. Therefore we can choose which parts of the Mosaic Law applies to the church (with appropriate dispensational tweaking on technical differences), and which parts only applied to the nation of Israel. Tithing is one such law and the surrounding ones in its context do not apply to the church. Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
6. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for tithing "mint and annis and cummin" and not obeying the weightier matters of the Law. He said "this ye ought to have done..." to those Jews still under the Mosaic Law tithing on their agricultural produce. Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
7. Jesus told the Pharisees and Sadducees to "render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's." Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
8. Paul said give "not grudgingly, nor of necessity, for God loveth a cheerful giver." Therefore we are commanded to give 10% of our paychecks to a local church.
Of course, I think the 23% calculation is debatable. It's all a matter of how you interpret the different tithing passages, and determine whether they are referring to the same tithe used in different ways or to separate tithes. Of course, I would still say that tithing was never anywhere in the Bible based on one's income, but always on the yearly increase of one's harvest. There is a big difference.
I agree that many people erroneously and ambiguously confuse the two terms giving and tithing.
Tithing was a legal matter for the theocratic government of the nation of Israel. It was God's tax and welfare system for this nation, just as we have a (much more abused) tax and welfare system in our own countries.
Posted by SAMPLENOW: I didn't Tithe this past month but I did get my bills paid and I don't feel bad about it. Is this wrong of me?
It depends. First of all not tithing is good. But were you truly unable to give? We need to trust God and give what we can to support those in the ministry.
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One thing everyone is missing is that tithing predated the Law by about 400 years. Genesis 14 records the account of Abram and Melchizedek.
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Brother Ian, If you have read any of the recent threads including this one on the subject of Abraham and Melchizedek, you would see that this was dealt with biblically and accuratly. Please refer to the study in my first post.
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We should tithe. The reason most people don't tithe is because they waste their money on other things and they convince themselves they cannot afford to tithe.
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First of all, Show me where we should tithe.The bible is CLEAR that giving is God's way. All you have are the non biblical blanket arguments of why people don't tithe. Your arguments don't hold water. They are weak and have no basis of truth as far as scripture is concerned.
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(I teach a class on finances at my church), they don't tithe because they don't want to.
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Although there are those that just won't give at all, tithing as practised in churches was never done in the bible. Tithing was on the increase and given to priests. Show me one verse where an undershepherd or any other man is or ever was allowed to take 10% of a mans wages.
I used to believe in tithing Brother Ian. I did study it out one day because the way it was being enforced in our church was in no wise Godly.
I watched my pastor accuse his people of robbing God. People with large families were being told to give their 10% no matter what their circumstances. God will provide. (Show me that doctrine please.)God expects us to care for our own family or we are worse than infidels.
He would only allow those that tithed to serve in the church. Where is it in the bible that limits a mans service by how much he drops in the plate?
Brother, You need to study this out. You will not believe the way you do afterwards. You will be as amazed as I was that the system of giving God has set in place is actually much better.
It depends. First of all not tithing is good. But were you truly unable to give? We need to trust God and give what we can to support those in the ministry.
quote:
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One thing everyone is missing is that tithing predated the Law by about 400 years. Genesis 14 records the account of Abram and Melchizedek.
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Brother Ian, If you have read any of the recent threads including this one on the subject of Abraham and Melchizedek, you would see that this was dealt with biblically and accuratly. Please refer to the study in my first post.
Quote:
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We should tithe. The reason most people don't tithe is because they waste their money on other things and they convince themselves they cannot afford to tithe.
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First of all, Show me where we should tithe.The bible is CLEAR that giving is God's way. All you have are the non biblical blanket arguments of why people don't tithe. Your arguments don't hold water. They are weak and have no basis of truth as far as scripture is concerned.
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(I teach a class on finances at my church), they don't tithe because they don't want to.
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Although there are those that just won't give at all, tithing as practised in churches was never done in the bible. Tithing was on the increase and given to priests. Show me one verse where an undershepherd or any other man is or ever was allowed to take 10% of a mans wages.
I used to believe in tithing Brother Ian. I did study it out one day because the way it was being enforced in our church was in no wise Godly.
I watched my pastor accuse his people of robbing God. People with large families were being told to give their 10% no matter what their circumstances. God will provide. (Show me that doctrine please.)God expects us to care for our own family or we are worse than infidels.
He would only allow those that tithed to serve in the church. Where is it in the bible that limits a mans service by how much he drops in the plate?
Brother, You need to study this out. You will not believe the way you do afterwards. You will be as amazed as I was that the system of giving God has set in place is actually much better.
There is absolutely no comparison between the OT tithe and the taxes levied by civil governments. Tithing was not a civil duty, it was religious act, an act of worship like the giving in the NT Church. The Law of the Tithe is, infact, connected to the duty of Christians to contribute to the maintenance of their ministers (1 Cor. 9:13 & 14).
There was no strong central government in the days of the Judges. The people were not taxed, nor was there any kind of draft. But when they asked for a king, they got taxes and a draft, and this was in addition to the tithes with which God commanded He should be worshipped, 1 Sam. 8:11-18. The taxes became so burdensome under Solomon, that when his successor threatened to raise them it divided the kingdom. The tax collector was stoned and Rehoboam had to flee to Jerusalem for safety.
A few things can be learned from this passage:
1. Melchizedek was a priest of the most high God. Tithing was only received by priests.
That's because tithes are given to God, not governments. Also, the reference to God as "most high" shows that the Tithe is not an exclusively Jewish institution. Throughout the OT, the title, "Most High God" is how God is known among the Gentiles. It is how He was known to Abram as well, being called while yet uncircumcised.
2. Abram tithed of what he obtained through battle with Chedorlaomer. He did not tithe of his own wealth.
No one can give what belongs to another. That's called stealing. If Abram could give it, then it was his. It was his "own wealth." This also shows us that the Tithe is not exclusively "harvest and livestock," but also spoils of war. The tithe was of anything by which one's estate is increased.
3. Abram refused to keep the remaining 90%. He gave the rest to the king of Sodom.
Again, the fact that Abram gave it shows that it was his to do with as he willed.
4. Abram was not commanded to tithe. He did it voluntarily.
The fact that Abram gave a tenth of all the spoil to God, not an eighth or a twelfth, especially when he kept none for himself, shows us that a the tenth is what was expected. Abram's choice was not arbitrary.
5. There is no record of Abram doing any other tithing.
This can't be learned from the passage, but it's irrelavent anyway.
Argue all you want that the Tithe is not a NT institution, but you need a different basis for saying so.
[ December 04, 2005, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Interesting. I would think you would need a better basis for proving that the "tithe" is a NT institution other than a (1)one-time event (2)in the Old Testament, giving tithes of (3)the spoils of war (4)to a priest (the king of Salem), and (5)giving the rest to the king of Sodom, (6)while there is no other record of Abram giving tithes to anyone else, nor of tithing of his income. This somehow proves that the tithe is an institute for the New Testament church? Ok, let's all go out to war and fight with some other kings and get spoils and give a tenth of it to one king and nine-tenths of it to another king, depending on the level we need to spiritualize this passage.
Still from here there is no mention of tithes. Paul was an apostle and a missionary. He lived of whatever was given to him, such as the generous gifts from the Macedonian church. If tithing were an ordinance of the NT church you would think that there would be some reference of it in the NT that had nothing to do with Jewish law. You would think that there would be some reference that would indicate that the local church building is now the new Temple (wait, our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Ghost [I Cor. 6:9]). You would think that there would be some reference that would indicate that the bishops and elders have now become the new Levites, priests, and sons of Aaron (wait, aren't we as believers individual priests? [I Peter 2:9])
Also, some questions to ask:
1. Why don't we release debts every seven years as this law immediately followed the tithe law, in Deut. 15? Why do we eat unclean animals as in the same chapter as the tithe in Deut. 14?
2. Why don't we have a tithe feast every first and second year where we eat our own tithe, and lay the tithe outside our gates every third year--the year of tithing?