Civil tithing debate

[Aaron]

Originally posted by AresMan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Argue all you want that the Tithe is not a NT institution, but you need a different basis for saying so.

Interesting. I would think you would need a better basis for proving that the "tithe" is a NT institution other than...</font>[/QUOTE]I mean you need a different basis than the assertion that the tithe is like the tax and welfare system of civil government and that it was only expected of harvest and livestock. As I have pointed out, those assertions are incorrect.

By far the best basis is that it isn't commanded in the NT.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Tithing was not a civil duty, it was religious act, an act of worship like the giving in the NT Church. The Law of the Tithe is, in fact, connected to the duty of Christians to contribute to the maintenance of their ministers (1 Cor. 9:13 & 14).

Wrong on both counts. The tithe supported the Levites as Levites (all priests were Levites, but not all Levites were priests). A portion of offerings brought to the tabernacle/temple supported the priests who were engaged in ministry there.

P.S. - instead of tax, Eld. B. M. Bogard often used the word "patrimony" (inheritance), which seems an appropriate word to me. Instead of a portion of land like the other tribes, part of the Levites "inheritance" was the tithe.

 

[Aaron]

Though only the sons of Aaron could serve as priests, all the Levites were in the service of the Tabernacle. They, therefore, also lived off the tithes and offerings of the other tribes. However, their tithe was reckoned to have been payed to Melchizedek through Abraham, Heb. 7:9.

The Tithe was indeed an act of worship, just as our giving is an act of worship. It was not there to compensate the Levites for having no land grant, because God was their inheritance. The Tithe was given to God, and God gave the Levites the right to live off of it, because they were in His service.

P.S. I accidentally hit the post button too early, so I had to hurry this response before my edit window closed. Sorry if it's awkwardly worded.

[ December 04, 2005, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[rlvaughn]

The priest's office peculiarly belonged to the sons of Aaron (Num 3:10 "And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office"). The Levites as a whole were for the overall service of the tabernacle (Num 3:6,7 "Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may minister unto him. And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of the congregation, to do the service of the tabernacle"). The tribe of Levi was substituted for the firstborn of all Israel (Num 3:12 "And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine"). It does not follow that every single descendant of Levi actually served, or that every descendant of Aaron was a priest. Males from ages 25 to 50 served (Num 8:24,25), and it appears they lived in their cities and different ones came to the tabernacle when it was their turn to work (e.g. I Chron 25,26). Some were disqualified (at least from the priesthood, Lev 21:17-23), but all, young & old, male & female, benefitted from their portion or inheritance.

Yes, God was their inheritance, but this is why they had no land grant (or at least one reason; Num 18:20,24 "And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel...But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance").

 

[Brother Ian]

Sorry everybody, I missed page two of the thread that spoke of the things I mentioned.

AresMan, increase in one's yearly harvest is comparable to one's annual income. Most people don't have a harvest.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the positions posted here.

Again, the account of Abraham and Melchizedek pre-dated the Law.

Soulman, you are assuming I have done no study on this issue. This is quite untrue. Please do not assume I have not studied because I disagree with you. I said we should tithe, I never said it is commanded to tithe. The principle of giving to your local church stems from the place you get your spiritual feeding. I would never accuse a man of robbing God if he didn't tithe. I maintian, tithing is a principle we should practice, but is not commanded.

The Bible does not command we unite with a local church, does that mean we should not belong to a local body of believers?

There are many principles in the Bible that are good to live by, but are not required[I/] so to speak.

For those that do not believe in tithing, how would you suggest supporting the work of the ministry?

[ December 05, 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Brother Ian ]

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
...But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer...unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

The tithes were offered to God, not to the Levites. How can you say tithing was not an act of worship?

Also, how do you say that Gospel ministers don't live the same way, from the worshipful giving of NT saints?

[ December 05, 2005, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
One thing everyone is missing is that tithing predated the Law by about 400 years. Genesis 14 records the account of Abram and Melchizedek.

Alright, next time we go plunder a region and kill all the people and take all the spoils, we should look up the nearest priest and give him a tenth.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by bapmom:
what about when Christ said that the Pharisees give tithe of all that they have.....and that this was a good thing? Didn't He also say that that was something they SHOULD have been doing?

Yep. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others (Matthew 23:23).

Alright, then, what we should do is pluck one of every 10 leaves off whatever we grow and bring it in. Bring one of every 10 eggs if you have chickens, as well as 1/10 of every chicken when they mature-- and that without regard, of course, to their quality (Leviticus 27:32). 1/10 of all apples you grow, one of every 10 turnips, one of every 10 green beans,.....

 

[AresMan]

Notice also that the tithe was of the increase of the seed of the field and of the livestock. What about those in other professions such as tayloring, pottery, carpentry, smithery, and so on? There is no indication anywhere of anyone tithing of vases and swords.
There is also no indication of anyone tithing money. Money was used as an intermediary to carry tithes and was to be redeemed at the Lord's chosen location... "for whatsoever your soul lusteth after." Money was also used if one did not wish to pay his tithes (of crops and livestock). He could redeem his tithes by adding one fifth to its price:

30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.
31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

So, if one did not wish to give up tenth part of his produce, he could buy it back by paying the value in money plus 20% more of its value. Let's try that with tithing money. Say that I don't want to tithe my 10% my paycheck. I could redeem my tithe back by paying 12% instead. That'll work.

For those that do not believe in tithing, how would you suggest supporting the work of the ministry?

Hmm, good question. Let's try II Corinthians 9:7

2 Cor. 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

How about we give whatever we can and feel led by the Holy Spirit to give. We give it cheerfully; not because we have to. We give according as we purpose in our heart (whether that be 10% of our paychecks or something else). If everyone gives cheerfully, God will see to it that His ministry is supported. Not only must the laypersons live and give by faith, but the ministers also must live and give by faith (not necessarily by "accounts receivable"). There is no indication in the New Testament that anyone in the church tithed (to the church), but Paul who travelled a lot seemed to have his needs met by gracious churches such as the one in Macedonia who gave even out of their poverty.

 

[AresMan]

Notice also that the tithe was of the increase of the seed of the field and of the livestock. What about those in other professions such as tayloring, pottery, carpentry, smithery, and so on? There is no indication anywhere of anyone tithing of vases and swords.
There is also no indication of anyone tithing money. Money was used as an intermediary to carry tithes and was to be redeemed at the Lord's chosen location... "for whatsoever your soul lusteth after." Money was also used if one did not wish to pay his tithes (of crops and livestock). He could redeem his tithes by adding one fifth to its price:

30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.
31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

So, if one did not wish to give up tenth part of his produce, he could buy it back by paying the value in money plus 20% more of its value. Let's try that with tithing money. Say that I don't want to tithe my 10% my paycheck. I could redeem my tithe back by paying 12% instead. That'll work.

For those that do not believe in tithing, how would you suggest supporting the work of the ministry?

Hmm, good question. Let's try II Corinthians 9:7

2 Cor. 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

How about we give whatever we can and feel led by the Holy Spirit to give. We give it cheerfully; not because we have to. We give according as we purpose in our heart (whether that be 10% of our paychecks or something else). If everyone gives cheerfully, God will see to it that His ministry is supported. Not only must the laypersons live and give by faith, but the ministers also must live and give by faith (not necessarily by "accounts receivable"). There is no indication in the New Testament that anyone in the church tithed (to the church), but Paul who travelled a lot seemed to have his needs met by gracious churches such as the one in Macedonia who gave even out of their poverty.

 

[Brother Ian]

It is my experience, that people will be "led" to give nothing. I agree that we are to give willingly and cheerfully. So why are the statistics so staggeringly low for giving at all?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by AresMan:
Notice also that the tithe was of the increase of the seed of the field and of the livestock. What about those in other professions such as tayloring, pottery, carpentry, smithery, and so on? There is no indication anywhere of anyone tithing of vases and swords.

You're still asserting this after I've shown you it was incorrect? Abram tithed the spoils of war, AND, the Levites fulfilled their tithe in that act.

In everyway Abraham's tithe "prefigured" (for lack of a better term) the tithe commanded by Moses.

 

[cojosh]

******It is my experience, that people will be "led" to give nothing. I agree that we are to give willingly and cheerfully. So why are the statistics so staggeringly low for giving at all? *********

Good point Brother Ian,

The widow's mite. She gave it all, as did the members of the early church. They sold all they had and distributed it among the members
of the church(Acts 2:45).

I hope no one on this post feels like the Holy Spirit is leading them to give less than 10%.

 

[rlvaughn]

Aaron, if you mean "worship" in the sense of the obedience of following the outward form, I suppose I have no large argument with you.

As far as Christian ministers are concerned, I don't think Paul's reference in I Cor. 9 is to the tithes, which supported all Levites, even those disqualified for service. Rather I believe he is referring to the offerings brought to the tabernacle/temple, of which the priests received a portion.

 

[cojosh]

******Aaron, if you mean "worship" in the sense of the obedience of following the outward form, I suppose I have no large argument with you.******

I agree.

All acts of obedience to God could be viewed as a type of worship if they are exercised with a heart of reverence. Obeidience could be a prerequisite to worship.

 

[songbird61]

If we are to take the resurrection and the end of the old law to task, then tithing is no longer needed. My belief and understanding is that with His crucification and resurrection, Jesus abolished all of the old laws such as burnt offerings, blood offerings, etc. this includes tithing. But if one were to argue that tithing is still important, there are other ways to tithe not moneterily connected. Your service in the church and the very act of giving of yourself and of material things freely. I know of church heads that actually claim half of the tithes given by their congregation. Where is that in the Bible???We need to understand that while the heads of our churches may be called to preach and teach they are still only men and still subject to the same flaws and indiscretion as the rest of us. The Word id there for us all to read and discern what it is the Lord would have us to do. I am not a Bible scholar nor am I scripture quoter, but I know what God has put in my spirit.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Aaron, if you mean "worship" in the sense of the obedience of following the outward form, I suppose I have no large argument with you.

As far as Christian ministers are concerned, I don't think Paul's reference in I Cor. 9 is to the tithes, which supported all Levites, even those disqualified for service. Rather I believe he is referring to the offerings brought to the tabernacle/temple, of which the priests received a portion.

I think I see where you're coming from. You seem to be saying that because it was commanded it wasn't worshipful. I don't see it that way. The burnt, meat and peace offerings were commanded, but they were acts of worship. They were not offered for sin (as were the sin and trespass offerings, which could not burned on the altar).

We are commanded to pray, yet that is an act of worship. When it comes right down to it, we are commanded to worship.

As far as the Levites were concerned, it must be understood that not just the priests served the Tabernacle. Those disqualified for service were only disqualified from the priesthood. The Kohathites, of whom Aaron and Moses were descended, were given the charge of carrying the vessels of the Tabernacle after the priests had covered them, Num. 4. Those sons of Aaron who could not be priests served in that capacity. The other two thirds of the tribe of Levi carried the curtains and coverings, and the hardware and framework of the structure itself.

So all the Levites were set aside by God to serve the Tabernacle. Therefore they were entitled to a portion of the tithes and offerings. It's the same principle of not muzzling the ox that treads the corn, which is another Mosaic commandment concerning the maintenance of ministers.

 

[Soulman]

Quote by Brother Ian: For those that do not believe in tithing, how would you suggest supporting the work of the ministry?

Give....

 

[Soulman]

Posted by cojosh:
-------------------------------------------------
I hope no one on this post feels like the Holy Spirit is leading them to give less than 10%.
-------------------------------------------------
Brother, It is not for you to decide to put a percentage on a persons giving in the first place. I beleive a person should give sacrificially(till it hurts). We should give as much as we can. But I am not going to judge a family who is unemployed and receiving an unemployment stipend if he can't make his 10%. How do you count time and talent? What if a person is cleaning the church, soul winning, working the buses etc. but can't give as much financially? Is that person measuring up to your 10% standard? How does your treasurer measure that?

The truth of the matter is that the tithe is NON-EXISTANT in the N.T.

The N.T. is GIVING. This is how we support our churches, pastors, buses, missions, etc.

To say that the principle of the tithe is valid is incorrect. Use it as your model if you want limitations, or give liberally as the Spirit directs you. But call it what it is. It aint tithing. It is a thing of the past. If you really want to trust God, do it His way...Give...

 

[Soulman]

bump