Clark Pinnock

[Rebel]

The only problem with that is that we are not offered like a multiple choice test to pick what we prefer. We are to deal with revealed truth in a way that handles all the verses.

These views directly contradict what scripture does reveal about God

It would be like a person who does not like what God reveals about judgement day...so they delete and edit those portions of the bible that speak those very truths.
Then that same person then substitutes their own carnal views in place of revealed truth or only allow ideas that agree with them to be expressed.

Rebel.....have you met unsaved religious people who offer religious ideas to you but you know that those ideas are fleshly.....and yet the person will fight to express their mistaken ideas even when most people know they are not even close to truth?

It is like that with this person. The church historically rejects these failed ideas.

I find freedom of the will and free choice in scripture and the early church. What I don't find is determinism in either. I know you will disagree, but that's how I see it.

 

[JonC]

I find freedom of the will and free choice in scripture and the early church. What I don't find is determinism in either.

I also find that our freedom to chose explicit throughout Scripture. Where I believe Open Theism has gone wrong is in its basic logic (e.g., if we freely chose between contingencies then God cannot have known the outcome of that decision). Arminianism is a bit different (free choices known by God) but still allows for the same mode of divine knowledge (God knows what will happen because he either knows us and plans accordingly, or he foresees what will occur and plans accordingly….I’ve heard it explained both ways). Some Calvinists hold a “hard determinism” theology whereby there are no “free choices.” All three positions (God does not know what will happen in the future; God plans according to what men will do; God controls the decisions of men who are unable to act freely within their nature), IMHO, have a very simplistic and anthropomorphic understanding of both God and men on this issue. You mentioned Scripture. Scripture presents men as freely choosing, but it also presents God as determining the outcome - what will occur - and even causing man’s obedience (e.g., Ezekiel 36: “I will cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances.”).

 

[OldRegular]

There is a "third" possibility: panentheism. Eastern Orthodoxy has panentheistic elements. There are Protestants who also hold to this.

Still heretical. Basically states God cannot exist apart from His Creation!

 

[Rebel]

Still heretical. Basically states God cannot exist apart from His Creation!

That is absolutely not what it states. You should study it more. It basically means that God is both immanent and transcendent. But the Orthodox distinguish between God Himself and His "energies".

 

[OldRegular]

Icon, I prefer these views to the view that man has no choice but everything has been predetermined.

It is not a matter of what you prefer but what Scripture teaches!

Proverbs 14:12. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[OldRegular]

That is absolutely not what it states. You should study it more. It basically means that God is both immanent and transcendent. But the Orthodox distinguish between God Himself and His "energies".

You are entitled to be wrong and you are. Theism teaches that God is both immanent and transcendent!

What is panentheism?
by Matt Slick

Panentheism (Greek pan which means "all," en which means "in," and theos which means "God") is the position that God is greater than the universe; the universe is in God; He permeates every part of nature, is part of nature, extends beyond nature, and is also distinct from it. Panentheism should not be confused with pantheism which says God and nature are the same and cannot be distinguished. However, panentheism maintains that God is changing. "Panentheists think of God as a finite, changing, director of world affairs who works in cooperation with the world in order to achieve greater perfection in his nature . . . they believe the world is God's body."

Panetheism maintains that God has two "polls": actuality and potentiality. God's actual existence and nature is changing; but His potential, what He can become, does not change.

Panentheism is unbiblical since it denies God’s transcendent nature, says that God is changing, confuses creation with God, denies miracles, and denies the incarnation of Christ along with the atoning sacrifice.

https://carm.org/panentheism

Panentheisim is really nothing more than a slick philosophical way of avoiding the nonsense of pantheism but fails completely!

 

[Rebel]

You are entitled to be wrong and you are. Theism teaches that God is both immanent and transcendent!




Panentheisim is really nothing more than a slick philosophical way of avoiding the nonsense of pantheism but fails completely!

You don't have to post a faulty definition of panentheism. I have studied it, and I know what it is. The part you put in bold is a complete fabrication. For example, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Nazarene scholar and professor Thomas Oord hold to panentheism, and their views are absolutely NOT what that bolded statement says. The Orthodox in particular are the most "Incarnational" Body in Christendom.

Statements such as you posted are nothing more than smear efforts. And CARM is a trashy site.

 

[OldRegular]

You don't have to post a faulty definition of panentheism. I have studied it, and I know what it is. The part you put in bold is a complete fabrication. For example, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Nazarene scholar and professor Thomas Oord hold to panentheism, and their views are absolutely NOT what that bolded statement says. The Orthodox in particular are the most "Incarnational" Body in Christendom.

Statements such as you posted are nothing more than smear efforts. And CARM is a trashy site.

I don't care whether you have studied it or not. You obviously did not learn much if you argue that panentheism teaches that the God of Scripture is both transcendent and immanent!

That is absolutely not what it states. You should study it more. It basically means that God is both immanent and transcendent. But the Orthodox distinguish between God Himself and His "energies".

 

[Rebel]

I don't care whether you have studied it or not. You obviously did not learn much if you argue that panentheism teaches that the God of Scripture is both transcendent and immanent!

That's what it teaches.

 

[OldRegular]

That's what it teaches.

You are deluded if you believe that but be happy in your delusion!

 

[Rebel]

You are deluded if you believe that but be happy in your delusion!

And you in yours. But I look forward to meeting you in heaven.

 

[Yeshua1]

Icon, I prefer these views to the view that man has no choice but everything has been predetermined.

God is NOT the author of sin and evil in calvinism, unless you take extreme Hyper views in it...

And mankind is resposible before God, as we all have sinned and have fallen short of His glory, and all of us deserve eternal seperation from God, so its due to His grace alone that ANY of us make it!

 

[OldRegular]

And mankind is resposible before God, as we all have sinned and have fallen short of His glory, and all of us deserve eternal seperation from God, so its due to His grace alone that ANY of us make it!

You are correct!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are correct!

Some of our bethren seem to forgotten here that if the Lord left all of us to our own devices, none of us would get saved, as sinners do not seek out the Lord unless the Lord first seeks them!