Clark Pinnock

[BobRyan]

No wait ! -- I quote Acts 21 and you respond with "sorry brother Bob"?? :smilewinkgrin:

I did not write Acts 21. I think we can all agree to that.

citation please.

Paul was opposed to judaizers but did not treat them as others treated him.

Let's "observe" for this can be an instructive moment.

Acts 21
17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

This fits with your view of Paul's teaching right?

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, Brother Bob. Galatians 2:4

Here's vs 1-5 for context:

Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

Indeed Paul's claim is that his Acts 21 - action is not "salvation by works" nor any of those OT saints that Paul lists in Heb 11.

Paul affirms the Bible -- the WORD of God - all the while claiming it is not "salvation by works" -- just as does the Baptist Confession of Faith - in its section 19.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rebel]

Ok well Open Theism is an abhorrent false teaching that should have no place in credible Christian conversations other than to condemn it.

Maybe that is a better way to say it.

Okay, and I'll say the same thing about Calvinism and PSA. Now what have we accomplished?

 

[Yeshua1]

God did enter into his creation, and the Word did become flesh. I don't see contemporary Open Theists arguing that God limits himself as much as I see them arguing that future contingencies are unknowable by nature except when purposed by God. I agree that open theism is heresy.


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They are painted into that theological corner of limiting God though, as they just refuse to accept that the lord has indeed predestine all of History to be coming to the end, to the final consumation when He has Jesus returning, reigning, and a new heavens and earth...

They would see God as somehow violate our vaunted real free will if h eknows all things to pass, as that to them presumes God causing all of it directly to come to pass!

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, and I'll say the same thing about Calvinism and PSA. Now what have we accomplished?

Exce[t taht calvinism does NOT affect Gods very nature, and call into question wether he really is all knowing in the traditional sense and use of the term!

 

[Yeshua1]

Indeed Paul's claim is that his Acts 21 - action is not "salvation by works" nor any of those OT saints that Paul lists in Heb 11.

Paul affirms the Bible -- the WORD of God - all the while claiming it is not "salvation by works" -- just as does the Baptist Confession of Faith - in its section 19.

in Christ,

Bob

The SDA teaches that we are saved by keeping the law and Commandments of god, so how can that not be another gospel then?

 

[Revmitchell]

Okay, and I'll say the same thing about Calvinism and PSA. Now what have we accomplished?

Well you have not accomplished anything because what you say is false. However, for the rest of us we have established errant teaching that has no place in the Christian community.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

A tongue-in-cheek description of open theism goes, "Standing firmly for the doctrine of the ignorance of God."

The Bible clearly portrays the sovereignty of God, and also the free will of man. I believe that understanding how both can exist at the same place and time is beyond the minds of humankind. Deut. 29:29 tells us that God does not reveal to us all mysteries, but that we are to use in serving Him those things which He does reveal.

 

[Rebel]

Exce[t taht calvinism does NOT affect Gods very nature, and call into question wether he really is all knowing in the traditional sense and use of the term!

Yes, it does affect His very nature, as it makes Him the author of evil.

 

[Rebel]

Well you have not accomplished anything because what you say is false. However, for the rest of us we have established errant teaching that has no place in the Christian community.

The only thing you have established in both of these statements is that you have an opinion. I would not exclude you, but you may exclude me if you wish. God doesn't.

 

[Revmitchell]

The only thing you have established in both of these statements is that you have an opinion. I would not exclude you, but you may exclude me if you wish. God doesn't.

What gets established in the truth of God's word.

 

[Rebel]

What gets established in the truth of God's word.

I also believe in the truth of God's word.

 

[Revmitchell]

I also believe in the truth of God's word.

Unorthodox heresy like Open Theism is not truth found in God's word.

 

[Rebel]

Unorthodox heresy like Open Theism is not truth found in God's word.

What is unorthodox and heretical is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

Do you think 5-point Calvinism is "unorthodox heresy"?

 

[Iconoclast]

Clark H. Pinnock. professor of theology at Regent’s College, Vancouver, likewise assumes the finiteness of God in his historical dealings with man. He posits God operating in a utilitarian mode:

What we detect…is not some dark predestinarian decree operating behind the scenes making sure everything works out right. What we do encounter is the freedom of God to respond, positively and negatively to man’s freedom…History is not a computer print–out of programmed decisions…It is much more like a dialogue between the Father and his human respondents.1049
Within the intrinsic limits of finitude, God lets [man] remain independent and free to create new situations which God himself has not willed. And in that case he does not give man up but rather accepts the new situation, drawing from it such consequences as man certainly does not expect or foresee but which will finally work for the actualizing of his love…1050

from arminianism Calvinism


Clark H. Pinnock asserts that original sin does not exist, but men are sinners because of their environment:

Sin is indeed ‘inherited,’ not in a biological sense, as Augustine argued, and certainly not because of a federal imputation of Adam’s guilt, as in the federal theology, but historically. Man is shaped by the warped social situation into which he is born and in which he grows up to maturity….The Fall has not deprived man of his ability to choose.1056

Pinnock, an avowed Arminian, denies Divine particularism and so denies the Divine decree, the covenant nature of our Lord’s death, and thus necessarily misunderstands the nature of grace, the free offer of the Gospel and Christian assurance

 

[OldRegular]

Unorthodox heresy like Open Theism is not truth found in God's word.

I agree that Open Theism is heretical. There were several Open Theists on this Forum a couple of years back.

It seems to me that Open Theism basically puts God at the mercy of His creation, that is assuming that Open Theists believe that God is Creator. If God is not the transcendent Creator then Open Theism is little better than pantheism.

 

[Rebel]

I agree that Open Theism is heretical. There were several Open Theists on this Forum a couple of years back.

It seems to me that Open Theism basically puts God at the mercy of His creation, that is assuming that Open Theists believe that God is Creator. If God is not the transcendent Creator then Open Theism is little better than pantheism.

There is a "third" possibility: panentheism. Eastern Orthodoxy has panentheistic elements. There are Protestants who also hold to this.

 

[Rebel]

It would be good for once to be able to discuss something objectively without throwing around the word "heretic". Many of our spiritual ancestors were charged with that by the state churches and burned at the stake, beheaded, tortured, drawn and quartered, and drowned.

 

[Rebel]

Clark H. Pinnock. professor of theology at Regent’s College, Vancouver, likewise assumes the finiteness of God in his historical dealings with man. He posits God operating in a utilitarian mode:





from arminianism Calvinism


Clark H. Pinnock asserts that original sin does not exist, but men are sinners because of their environment:


Pinnock, an avowed Arminian, denies Divine particularism and so denies the Divine decree, the covenant nature of our Lord’s death, and thus necessarily misunderstands the nature of grace, the free offer of the Gospel and Christian assurance

Icon, I prefer these views to the view that man has no choice but everything has been predetermined.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, I prefer these views to the view that man has no choice but everything has been predetermined.

The only problem with that is that we are not offered like a multiple choice test to pick what we prefer. We are to deal with revealed truth in a way that handles all the verses.

These views directly contradict what scripture does reveal about God

It would be like a person who does not like what God reveals about judgement day...so they delete and edit those portions of the bible that speak those very truths.
Then that same person then substitutes their own carnal views in place of revealed truth or only allow ideas that agree with them to be expressed.

Rebel.....have you met unsaved religious people who offer religious ideas to you but you know that those ideas are fleshly.....and yet the person will fight to express their mistaken ideas even when most people know they are not even close to truth?

It is like that with this person. The church historically rejects these failed ideas.