Classic Hymns VS CCM music in church

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Aaron:
The CCM argument boils down to self will. Those who argue for "classic hymns" are arguing for God's preferences, even if many of their arguments are erroneous.

I have seen many selfish pigs who do not share their faith and have never discipled anyone who come to church every Sunday and complain.

That is the same excuse the old gang used back in the 1500s about why not to have the old hymns we have today. They claimed music was of the devil then.

 

[preach97]

Yet the question still remains that we have yet to answer- Should we use the world's methods, even though the song may have Christian lyrics, for spiritual matters? When you talk of CCM music you are talking about the same beat used in love songs and pop culture songs. So is God really pleased with that when He has called us to be seperate from the world?

 

[mnw]

I have seen many selfish pigs who do not share their faith and have never discipled anyone who come to church every Sunday and complain.

That is the same excuse the old gang used back in the 1500s about why not to have the old hymns we have today. They claimed music was of the devil then.

Pigs? Do you mean Gentiles? Policeman? Just wondered who the pigs were...

I would like to see some evidence as to the reasons given back in the 1500's for rejecting some music. I'm assuming you were not there...

But then at the end of the day. The measure for truth is never historical acceptance or rejection, though that can be a help and guide. The measure is does it measure up with Scriptural principles.

The tired argument of "The bible does not talk about style so I can use whatever I want" is not relevant. The Bible does not specifically state do not sniff glue, but does that mean we can run around sniffing glue?

Preach97 gives a good point. I often wonder what separation means to some. They dress the same as the world, watch the same movies, use the same language, use all the same entertainment, listen to the same music. Where is the separation? Not to go off topic, but the musical separation issue is part of a larger life separation issue. (Separation, not isolation...)

When a Rock star, many rock musicians, specifically state, "I use this music to sexually arouse the hearer" then something inside me says it is wrong. When they can do that even if the words are in another language then something tells me that is wrong. When I have experianced the same physical reaction to certain styles then something tells me they are wrong.

And to be fair, I will not listen to some classical pieces because of the same rule.

God's Word states our musical should major on the spiritual. Rock/pop/jazz and others major on the physical. It seems only the immoral/amoral CCM crowd do not admit that. I say immoral/amoral because there is a moral ccm crowd also... I like that crowd.

 

[musicforyou]

I completely agree with you. There are some people who listen to CCM (I used to be one of them) but it all boils down to what is the best way to glorify God. I (as well as most people) feel that the old style hymns such as "When I Survey," "The Old Rugged Cross," and "Amazing Grace" are much more glorifying to God than CCM songs such as "God of Wonders," "Awesome God," and "Step by Step."

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Well then get rid of your Pianos and Organs because they were once anathema in the church...

The problem with this debate is that both sides have too much pride in their position to even try to logically debate it or try to sense what the Holy Spirit is saying...

It always boils down to **all** of this style is of the devil and **all** of this style is of God...

Well, fine... Think what you will...

But, the same meters and chord progression used in some of your favorite hymns can probably be found in Lawrence Welk Champagne Music...

If you think Rock is sensual... And, only so...

What about a style whose specific purpose is to wine, dine, and rub bodies together until...

That's what Champagne Music is...

And, if you think Country and Western style gospel is cool...

It ain't! The vast majority of C&W is just another beer drinking somebody done somebody wrong song...

So, obviously we need to go back to Gregorian Chants and no instrumentation at all...

Because **NO** Instrumental Music is **PURE**...

IT was **ALL** corrupted by satan when he rebelled and turned his pipes and tabrets against God...

That ought to save a lot on the church budget...

No need for Pianos, Organs, or Sound system!

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

What are we thinking when we hear music that we feel strongly is not Godly...

Is it style that bugs us...

Or, the spirit behind a SPECIFIC piece of music?

Mike Sr.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Quote by mnw:
When a Rock star, many rock musicians, specifically state, "I use this music to sexually arouse the hearer" then something inside me says it is wrong.

OK... can't remember the last time I heard a Christian artist make this exclamation from the microphone. Who's concert were you at? But I would agree. If I heard this statement, it would disturb me as well.

Quote by mnw:
When they can do that even if the words are in another language then something tells me that is wrong. When I have experianced the same physical reaction to certain styles then something tells me they are wrong.

Forgive the question, but are you saying you have been sexually aroused by rock music? I've never been... therefore your logic is flawed... if that is the issue with you, than maybe you're right that you shouldn't listen. But don't assume it affects me the same way.

As far as being separate, there is a point that it becomes ridiculous. I'm being separate by being in Christ.
* Search long and hard enough and you'll find someone who wears those clothes that you consider acceptable who has a rotten heart and life.
* Search long and hard enough and you'll find someone who listens to the same music you like, but then views inappropriate material on the internet when no one's watching.
* Search long and hard enough and you'll find someone with your job that has a drinking problem.

Whatever the case, it boils bown to the fact that we all live in this world. Being separate means living with Christ in you so that people see Him in your life. Just don't be so separate that no one ever sees you at all.

Besides... the OP was talking about "in church" not from the stage. I can honestly say that with my mind on Christ in church, it would be difficult for me to become aroused at all... no matter what I'm singing.

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by musicforyou:
I completely agree with you. There are some people who listen to CCM (I used to be one of them) but it all boils down to what is the best way to glorify God. I (as well as most people) feel that the old style hymns such as "When I Survey," "The Old Rugged Cross," and "Amazing Grace" are much more glorifying to God than CCM songs such as "God of Wonders," "Awesome God," and "Step by Step."

"I (as well as most people) feel that..."

Feelings don't equal fact. And why does it matter if "most people" feel that way? Does majority rule? I doubt the veracity of that statement anyway...do you have any proof that "most people" feel that way?

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by Aaron:

The CCM argument boils down to self will. Those who argue for "classic hymns" are arguing for God's preferences, even if many of their arguments are erroneous. None of them say or feel that "classic hymns" should be used because they prefer them, despite false accusations to the contrary. They are saying, "This is what pleases God."

The CCM group is saying, "This is what pleases me."

Compare this to my above post, and it's kinda funny...

Your assertion is absolutely baseless. You know ANYONE and EVERYONE that has EVER worshiped God singing ANYTHING modern, and you know their hearts, motives, and intentions. That's a large jump...be sure and wear knee pads when you crash.

BTW, I'll say it again. I'm not "pro CCM." I'm pro-God glorifying music. We aren't about to throw out the richness of the great hymns of the faith. Old, ancient, and new...God can use them all.

Aaron, do your arms ever get tired building all those strawmen?

 

[mnw]

OK... can't remember the last time I heard a Christian artist make this exclamation from the microphone. Who's concert were you at? But I would agree. If I heard this statement, it would disturb me as well.

Like I said, ccm artists seem to be the only ones who don't admit to the influence some musical styles have.

Music can do many things as well as arouse physical attraction between two people. It can be aggressive or rebellious and many other things. As many emotions and desires we have I am sure there is a musical style to encourage/discourage it.

As far as separation Joshua, I would agree with you. There is a point where it becomes crazy. That is why I pointed out I was separated, not isolated.

Madman, was your post for against champagne music, it was hard to tell?

As far as the historical aspect, I'll say again as some seem to have missed it: The measure for truth is never historical acceptance or rejection, though that can be a help and guide. The measure is does it measure up with Scriptural principles.

The spirit behind something does not determine its moral or immoral standing. Somethings are intrinsically wrong and no spirit behind them is going to change that.

BTW, how many times has this been gone over on the BB? Any minds been changed?

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Not mine yet, mnw.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

MNW,

I do not offer a perspective for or against Champagne Music...

I *was* comparing some of *your* favorite (supposedly perfectly Godly) Hymns to Champagne Music...

I was also stating that if Rock Music Sensually arouses you...

And, others say it doesn't do the same to them...

How can you be so arrogant as to say it the non-sensually inclined that has the problem!

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Seems to me that it is the sensually and carnally inclined that are having the problem with Rock?

But, you can _NOT_ see or speak to **MY** heart state or condition based on your own failings...

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mike Sr.

 

[Dave]

I have no problem with a mix of CCM and Hymns. I think most of the hymns that I am familiar with are better and more God glorifying than most CCM, but that is not to say all hymns are good or all CCM is bad.

Where I have a big issue is when a church replaces all of the hymns with CCM and puts a "praise band" instead of piano and organ, so now its much more akin to a rock concert than a worship service. I find it very hard to get my heart in tune with worshipping the Lord with 2 guitars, electric bass, electric keyboard, full drum set all heavily amplified.

Worship should come from the heart. It is more than the words we sing, or the music that is played. Music can and does have a big influence on how we feel at a given time. Hollywood knows this well. Ever listen to a movie soundtrack? The music foretells what is coming in the scene. It can be foreboding, happy, joyful, sad, etc. It influences mood and emotional content. You might immediately dislike a character in a movie based on the music that accompanies that characters appearing because it brings an association with it.

The key a piece of music is in, the timing of it, the volume of it, even the instrumentation all is part of this. Why do we think that we can import a rock beat and instrumentation, timing, volume and get worship out of it by only changing the words?

We are worshipping the God that made the universe, who from His loftiness, had mercy upon a people who He is carving out for Himself among all those who ever walked the earth. Absolutely there should be celebration in this, but there also needs to be referent reflection on our unworthiness before Him. An opportunity to revel in His love.

Maybe this is an extreme of CCM that most churches don't have in it, I just know it does nothing for me, and actually interferes with my ability to properly worship.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Dave,

My tastes are varied...

I like a blend myself...

I like boisterous Praise to start with... That could be CCM style or a Fast Hymn...

I like to progress into Worship which will tend to be much quieter and reflective...

Some sequences will include hymns, others won't.

Depends upon how the Spirit leads in picking out the songs...

My own preferences tend to _NOT_ desire to use a lot of the current crop of CCM even if it is supposedly Praise or Worship...

This is because some of it is Frenetic for the sake of being Frenetic...

Or cutesy to be marketable...

Some of it is doctrinally unsound...

Some won't fit one service but might fit another...

Some won't get used in 'my' church over my dead body!

But, all CCM Style Praise and Worship is not "bad"... Nor, are all Hymns "Dead"...

Mike Sr.

 

[musicforyou]

This whole issue has turned into one big argument. We have gotten away from the subject. We are hardly even talking about the music. Now it is more or less of a "my dad can beat up your dad". This board was created to discuss not argue. Maybe we all need to grow up a little and discuss this like the adults and Christians we are supposed to be.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

I use to listen to some CCM and my flesh enjoyed the beat and I ended up rarely even listening to the words.

Also, many I folks I have met (I'm sure not all) that enjoy CCM also enjoy the secular counterpart type of music. I even hear many on here that talk about and still listen to the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and even worse Kiss, Van Halen, etc...

There is no separation to the world and condoning music that has lyrics that glorify sex, drugs, and roll and roll should not be the music we listen to.

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by AF Guy N Paradise:
I use to listen to some CCM and my flesh enjoyed the beat and I ended up rarely even listening to the words.

And, I think there's something to be said for this. Some folks are "wired" in such a way, or their past (or significant other's past), or convictions necessitates that they avoid that.

Just as...I avoid Cokes. They're not evil...but I lost 75 pounds three years ago, and for me, Cokes would be the beginning of a rebound.

I'm fine with that attitude, and would affirm anyone else for which it's true.

 

[mnw]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
I do not offer a perspective for or against Champagne Music...

But you did say,

What about a style whose specific purpose is to wine, dine, and rub bodies together until...

That's what Champagne Music is...

If somethings style is to promote the activities of body rubbing together how can that be anything but counter productive in church?

I *was* comparing some of *your* favorite (supposedly perfectly Godly) Hymns to Champagne Music...

In your last post you said "probably" regarding champagne music sounding like some hymns, not fact. Also, I don't remember mentioning any favourite hymns. And as I have stated in other posts, that your angry eyes seem to gloss over, I like pslams, hymns and spiritual songs. I even like some contemporary music. Note, it is not only hymns.

I was also stating that if Rock Music Sensually arouses you...

And, others say it doesn't do the same to them...

How can you be so arrogant as to say it the non-sensually inclined that has the problem!

Some people say going to a nudist colony doesn't encourage bad thoughts. Guess that's okay too by your logic...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Seems to me that it is the sensually and carnally inclined that are having the problem with Rock?

Sensually and carnally inclined? That would be every living breathing soul in the world. I guess that does not include the super spiritual who have risen above temptation...

But, you can _NOT_ see or speak to **MY** heart state or condition based on your own failings...

I don't presume to. Just sharing facts and haven't mentioned anyone by name.

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Good Scriptures

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I am sorry if I jumped to conclusions not in evidence...

But, I no longer think we are communicating or debating...

I think we are back to the same old tired frustrated argument that these threads always come back to...

The Hymnists say CCM is bad... And, only Hymns are acceptable for worship...

The CCM crowd takes offense for, at the least, being intimated they are fleshly and sensual...

Then it moves from minor tit for tats to all out war...

One crowd inevitably uses scriptures of freedon and liberty...

The other uses scriptures to say that if you don't agree that CCM is bad then your just as bad as to secular rock musician on overdose...

Maybe not in so many words... But, still...

Mike Sr.

 

[rbell]

Mike,

If you dig underneath the rhetoric, I think there's some substantive discussion going on. (maybe a small bit? )

It's just buried a bit.

And through all this...I hope that people can honestly evaluate the "why's" of their beliefs. It also makes me do my homework and stay sharp.

 

[mnw]

Okay, AGAIN, myself and others like pslams, hymns and spiritual songs. I even like some contemporary music. Note, it is not only hymns that are good.

However, I am not sure I'll post again on this thread. For all the good intentions we have, it does seem we have a little heat than light.

It is a subject that arouses passions and I understand any outbursts...I do it myself

I have appreciated the posts and continue trying to learn what I can.