Clear up confusion about tongues!

[awaken]

In Acts 2 the gift to the apostles was directly first given. In acts 10 there is good reason provided by the context which are clear and explicit why no hands were laid upon them. No jew would touch a gentile due to ceremonial defilement and Peter made that clear with his introductory words to Corneilus:

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

It was only after God provided miraculous manifestation of His approval that even then Peter had to ask his Jewish witnesses:

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

It still proves someone can receive the Holy Spirit without laying on of hands!
There were 120 in that upper room...all spoke in tongues..not just the apostles. The Corinthians spoke in tongues..they were not Jews! They misused the gift in the assembly..but they were never told not to speak in tongues. Just the opposite...Forbid not to speak in tongues.

 

[awaken]

I take the tevleio" to refer to the "coming of Christ for His church." This is to be preferred over the other interpretations. First, it must be said that such a view does not fall on the use of the gender of tevleio" which is neuter. Instead of referring to Christ as a person (masculine), it could simply be referring to the second coming as an event (neuter). The neuter would cover such an idea quite well. Second, the abruptness of o{tan deV e[lqh/ seems to indicate a sudden change. The parousia would fit such an event quite well. Third, the change spoken of in v. 12 (which looks at an event, cf. v. 10) is an eschatological change. Fourth, Paul uses tevleio" to refer to this period ( 1 Cor 1:8; 15:24). Perhaps one problem with this view is the fact that the gifts of prophecy and knowledge do seem to continue into the millennium after Christ returns (Isa. 11:9). But, the "partial" is a focus on what the gifts produce, not the gifts themselves. In the Millenium, they probably function in a complete way, not partial, with the result that such an objection poses no real problem.

 

[The Biblicist]

Can you define spiritual alive and spiritual dead? I understand it to be separated from God or connected to God. Our spirit is eternal...where we spend eternity depends on our descision about Jesus Christ...but that is another thread.

Spiritual life by definition is UNION with God's Spirit in your spirit. Spiritual death is SEPARATION or non-spiritual union with God's Spirit. Your view assigns all before pentecost to Spiritual death.

 

[The Biblicist]

I take the tevleio" to refer to the "coming of Christ for His church."

Whenever that is Paul's subject he says so and uses such words that indicate so. He does not say so nor does he uses his common synonoyms in 1 Cor. 13 for that.

 

[The Biblicist]

It still proves someone can receive the Holy Spirit without laying on of hands!
There were 120 in that upper room...all spoke in tongues..not just the apostles. The Corinthians spoke in tongues..they were not Jews! They misused the gift in the assembly..but they were never told not to speak in tongues. Just the opposite...Forbid not to speak in tongues.

If you cannot see this plainly then you are just unwilling to be objective as it is spelled out clearly for anyone to see who is willing to see the truth.

 

[awaken]

Whenever that is Paul's subject he says so and uses such words that indicate so. He does not say so nor does he uses his common synonoyms in 1 Cor. 13 for that.

NOr does he mention the complete canon...

 

[awaken]

Spiritual life by definition is UNION with God's Spirit in your spirit. Spiritual death is SEPARATION or non-spiritual union with God's Spirit. Your view assigns all before pentecost to Spiritual death.

THe only connection they had with God was through the priest...The Holy Spirit was not in them..

 

[awaken]

If you cannot see this plainly then you are just unwilling to be objective as it is spelled out clearly for anyone to see who is willing to see the truth.

In other words..If I do not see this your way..

 

[The Biblicist]

Interesting passage Isaiah 28...but I do not think we are going to see the same thing.
"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, THis (another tongue) is the rest wherewith may cause the weary to rest; and this(another tongue) is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."

You quote only verse 11 which simply predicts unknown tongues but completely ignore what the context also predicts to be the consequences of failing to respond properly to that "sign"! May I ask why? It seems you approach every scripture subjectively with a predetermined bias to view it only from the perspective of your experience. How can you be objective with that type of biased approach?

Isaiah clearly predicts the trodding down of Jerusalem as the result of failure to receive this sign properly:

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

One you have not shown where the office of the apostles have ended.
Two.. foundational is speaking of teachings/ doctrine that they laid! (1 Cor. 3

THat shows he was the last one that Jesus appeared to after his resurrection. Not the last apostle.

This is your response? You have got to be kidding? The fact that one must be an EYE WITNESS of the resurrrected BODY of Jesus Christ places quite a limitation on this office as Apostle Paul says he was the "LAST" to witness the resurrected body.

Again, there is not an objective bone in your body when you approach scriptures that do not support your subjective experience.

No comment..

Of course you have no comment as ALL evidence available for ALL self-proclaimed prophets and apostles today condemns them obviously and easily.

 

[The Biblicist]

In other words..If I do not see this your way..

No, it means that the evidence is so obvious and so repeated that it takes sheer will power to dismiss it.

For instance, how many times did God have to reshow the same vision to Peter and even after that had to rebuke him to get him willing to even go to a gentile house? Dah!

For instance, look at Peter's first words when he came to the gentile house? Dah!

For instance, even after an obvious visible miracle by God occurred look at Peter's words to his Jewish witnesses "Can any man fobid" and ask yourself why even ask that if it is not so obvious that like the Samaritan woman said to Jesus the "Jews have no dealing with" with half Jews and Gentiles (Samaritan) much less Gentiles! Dah!

And you think that apostle would lay his hands on them without such divine verification and confirmation by witnesses with that kind of background and bias????

You have no objective bone in your body and you willufly refuse to consider any Biblical evidence that exposes your subjective experiences as wrong!

 

[The Biblicist]

NOr does he mention the complete canon...

he lists only revelatory gifts and what is the function of revelatory gifts? To reveal the will of God. If revelatory gifts only provide that function "in part" then what would provide the REVEALED WILL OF GOD maturely and completely in full? Paul uses that language when describing the Word of God in 2 Tim. 3:17 "that the man of God may be PERFECT THROUGHLY FURNISHED INTO ALL good works." If "in part" revelatory gifts were sufficient to REVEAL THE WILL OF GOD to the saints then why did Paul say that is the function of the WRITTEN Word of God in 2 Tim. 4:16-17??????????



James compars the Word of God with a mirror that one looks into to see himself. Paul's illustration is looking into an IMPERFECT mirror (in part revelatory gifts that are incomplete compared to the finished Word of God) so that what is seen is how OTHERS view him. He makes no reference to seeing Christ face to face but rather he can be seen as other see him which a blurred brass mirror does not provide. In part revelatory gifts do not provide the kind of revelation provided by the finished Word of God especially in regard to the topic of the context - spiritual gifts and their proper use. Take note of 1 Cor. 14:37 that Paul is claiming that this epistle is part of that completion of God's written Word.

 

[awaken]

You quote only verse 11 which simply predicts unknown tongues but completely ignore what the context also predicts to be the consequences of failing to respond properly to that "sign"! May I ask why? It seems you approach every scripture subjectively with a predetermined bias to view it only from the perspective of your experience. How can you be objective with that type of biased approach?

Isaiah clearly predicts the trodding down of Jerusalem as the result of failure to receive this sign properly:

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

I agree that the uninterpreted tongues is a sign to Jews. But that is not the only reason tongues is given!

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree that the uninterpreted tongues is a sign to Jews. But that is not the only reason tongues is given!

I dare you to find any other BIBLICAL reason that Paul gave for the use of tongues! Paul told the Corinthians to GROW UP and MATURE in their thinking of the proper use of tongues (1 Cor. 14:20) and the MATURE purpose was established by Paul on the only BIBLICAL foundation he gave for tongues (1 Cor. 14:21-22).

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree that the uninterpreted tongues is a sign to Jews. But that is not the only reason tongues is given!

Isaiah gives the predicted purpose of tongues and the predicted consequence for not responding to it - the trodden down of Jerusalem - which Jesus also predicted (Lk. 21:20-24). Paul reaffirms this as the purpose as the BIBLICAL purpose for tongues directly upon his own assertion that he would not speak in tongues in the assembly without interpretation as the Biblical purpose for the use by the church was to be "sign" to Israel (1 Cor. 14:19-23).

 

[The Biblicist]

Isaiah gives the predicted purpose of tongues and the predicted consequence for not responding to it - the trodden down of Jerusalem - which Jesus also predicted (Lk. 21:20-24). Paul reaffirms this as the purpose as the BIBLICAL purpose for tongues directly upon his own assertion that he would not speak in tongues in the assembly without interpretation as the Biblical purpose for the use by the church was to be "sign" to Israel (1 Cor. 14:19-23).

What is practiced today has no bearing, no similarity, no connection with the Biblical tongues in the Bible.

What is practiced to day is the same phenomena practiced by every occut and it is induced the very same way. The church at Jerusalem was not seeking spiritual gifts or seeking speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost. They were simply obeying Christ's command to wait. They had no worship leader emotionally building them and psychologically prepping them and no tarrying after tongues. However, this is precisely how the modern tongue movement started in Wales and in America and how every non-tongue speaker is taught to pursue and this is how ever occult pursues ecstatic utterances. No modern tongue speaker has simply been praying and burst into what they call tongues apart from some kind of influence and yet Pentecost had no prior teaching, influence or direction about seeking tongues. It was soverignly given without request, without seeking, without pursuit according to God's power and will.

 

[awaken]

he lists only revelatory gifts and what is the function of revelatory gifts? To reveal the will of God. If revelatory gifts only provide that function "in part" then what would provide the REVEALED WILL OF GOD maturely and completely in full? Paul uses that language when describing the Word of God in 2 Tim. 3:17 "that the man of God may be PERFECT THROUGHLY FURNISHED INTO ALL good works." If "in part" revelatory gifts were sufficient to REVEAL THE WILL OF GOD to the saints then why did Paul say that is the function of the WRITTEN Word of God in 2 Tim. 4:16-17??????????

THe Holy Spirit leads and guides us to all truth. He is still revealing the truths of the Bible to me! I do not have complete revelation or knowledge!

James compars the Word of God with a mirror that one looks into to see himself. Paul's illustration is looking into an IMPERFECT mirror (in part revelatory gifts that are incomplete compared to the finished Word of God) so that what is seen is how OTHERS view him. He makes no reference to seeing Christ face to face but rather he can be seen as other see him which a blurred brass mirror does not provide. In part revelatory gifts do not provide the kind of revelation provided by the finished Word of God especially in regard to the topic of the context - spiritual gifts and their proper use. Take note of 1 Cor. 14:37 that Paul is claiming that this epistle is part of that completion of God's written Word.

He stated that what he was writing was a commandment of the Lord! Nothing about being a part of a complete Bible.

I have already addressed this and we just do not agree!
Again...There is nothing in the passage that necessitates a ceasing of the gift during the apostolic age or the completion of the Bible. All one can say for sure is that the terminus ad quem is the coming of the perfect as described in 13:10. The point of the passage seems to be that all three gifts—prophecy, knowledge and tongues—are temporary and not eternal, like love. We need to focus on what is eternal.

 

[awaken]

I dare you to find any other BIBLICAL reason that Paul gave for the use of tongues! Paul told the Corinthians to GROW UP and MATURE in their thinking of the proper use of tongues (1 Cor. 14:20) and the MATURE purpose was established by Paul on the only BIBLICAL foundation he gave for tongues (1 Cor. 14:21-22).

I have shared throughout this thread..not only from Paul but in the book of Acts.

I will repeat it..


The people in the crowd said, "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders, as in Psalms 40:5 and 66:3:
"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)

Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 ..They were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

 

[UserFriendlyGuide]

I dare you to GROW UP and MATURE

Off the subject just a tad. I wanted to know if you are aware of the little green light next to each person's name when they are online and it goes off when they are not online.

I've seen you post recently about taking care of your wife and shopping and such and will not be able to respond but your green light flickers on and off every 10 minutes after you say such things. Or you simply post 5 minutes after you say it.

So, we ALL are aware of when someone has logged off or if someone has not. You can also see your posting chart and time table.

So when you spoke about retiring from work to take care of your wife because of her digression and MUCH needed attention from her husband, you can clearly see when you where Posting under the handle " DR, WALTER" that you posted from 5am till 10 pm, every 5-10 minutes and statistically posted over 60 times daily.

Anyone can clearly see that you try to only bait new people to the forum in a friendly debate and quickly turn a perfectly fine debate into a way to take jabs and personally attack others. Until the topic fits your agenda and turns into a big dung slinging contest.

That is why nobody that has been here for any length of time debates topics with you anymore. Other then, the people that are exactly like you.

You are a Pastor in Real Life, but hiding away under fake Handles online spewing your anger and desire for conflict in a very un-christ like matter show's what type of person you really are.

The 3 or 4 members in your church, if they were not your own family would not attend your chruch anymore if they were aware of such behavior.

Perhaps, that is the reason NOBODY goes to your church in real life. Because, of how you act and treat people.

Your wife and kids deserved a Father and a Father that practices what he preaches but they got no time or love with you growing up because of your addiction to the internet and desire for conflict.

If your wife is as sick as everyone is saying behind your back in real life. It is very sad that you spend so much time on the internet.

You claim you only get on in the morning before you wife wakes up. No Mark W Fenion/ Dr. Walter / The Biblicist. Your post history and green light show that you are on all day long. Everyday, every hour.

So, stop lying, it's even sillier to lie on a pointless random debate forum as if it really matters. You should be Telling everyone of your friends and family this and see if they buy it.

People on here might buy it or not give to cents but the people that SHOULD matter in your life DON'T buy it. But you want to live in your own little online fantasy world.

That is fine, but don't lie about who and what you are. Just come to grips with it.

Your friendly user Guide,

by the way, after I spam this, I will log off, notice how the green light next to my name goes OFF and does not go back ON. Lol.
:thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

Off the subject just a tad. :

You have been booted off this forum at least five different times under five different names and you will be booted off again. You were booted off for placing porn on this forum, for lies, and false accusations and you are still doing the same. Well the Lord said blessed are you when you are persecuted so I have a lot of blessings in store.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have shared throughout this thread..not only from Paul but in the book of Acts.

I will repeat it..


The people in the crowd said, "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders, as in Psalms 40:5 and 66:3:
"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)

Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 ..They were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

This is all fine but does not address my challenge. Find where any New Testament writer used scripture to provide the purpose of tongues. There are none but Paul's use of Isaiah 28:11-12 and Paul provides that in the very context of tongues for the purpose to give a MATURE understanding of God's design for tongues.